[Date Prev][Date
Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date
Index][Thread Index]
RE: Condensing boilers & microbore pipe
I agree that a comercial package like a TREND BEMS is way too complex for
your
average 4 bed detached and that its payback would be unviable. But if we
have
to look at relative paybacks then double glazing is a non-starter. The
average
payback for double glazing is around 15 - 20 years, yet we see so much of
it
installed !!
A BEMS is as simple or complex as you want it to be. You could argue that
Homevision has some BEMS functionality. It could be wired to several
solenoid
operated valves and several thermostats in order to set comfort levels in
rooms. It can monitor occupancy and turn ligts on and off as and when they
are
in use. I agree it does not have the complex functionality of a dedicated
system, but it could be connected to a HAWK or something similar (maybe
inductive clamps) on the incoming power supply to monitor electricity
usage.
Coupled with something like the Danfoss BEM5000 you would actually have the
makings of a quite sophisticated system.
Unfortunately as you say even the Homevision solution is relatively
expensive,
BUT if you have one that you are using home automation why not extend its
functionality and do some basic Energy management as well.
I do believe that as requirements for energy efficiency get tighter we will
see
more products on the market.
As a footnote, try telling the wife that you are turning the heating
thermostat
down from 23oc to 19oc to save energy - it normally results in the fillet
steak
that you normally have for tea being replaced with liver and onions, as she
is
trying to save money on the food shopping bill !!!
Simon
Quoting Neil Ball <neilball@xxxxxxx>:
> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> <BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Simon Rafferty [mailto:simonr@xxxxxxx] <BR>
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 18:11<BR>
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx<BR>
> Subject: Re: [ukha_d] Condensing boilers & microbore
pipe<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <snip> <BR>
> More expensive systems like TREND can cope and compensate for a
thermal<BR>
> gradient across a building as walls become warmed via sunlight at
> different<BR>
> times of day thus inputting varying amounts of heat into different
zones,
> eg<BR>
> easterly facing rooms may require less heat in the morning and more in
> the<BR>
> evening. Beyond this you can link in multiple zoning for heating using
> shunt<BR>
> valves and pumps coupled to smart thermostats that set back to a
lower<BR>
> temperature either at night in various zones or when they are not
> occupied.<BR>
> <BR>
> On a domestic scale savings are small 10 - 20% max. But we looked at
an<BR>
> installation in a hotel in Eire that was linked to the booking
computer.
> The<BR>
> computer booked rooms a floor at a time and reduced the heat to the
> floors<BR>
> that were unoccupied. Coupled with a smart thermostat in each room so
> that<BR>
> only rooms that were occupied were heated evening and morning time
using<BR>
> solenoid operated valves. This saved the hotel 65% of its heating bill
> in<BR>
> the first year and it paid for the BEMS in 11 months !!!!!<BR>
> For a simple system have a look at Danfoss Randle<BR>
> <a
> href="http://www.danfoss-randall.co.uk/default.asp";>http://www.danfoss-
randall.co.uk/default.asp</a>
> this is a boiler management<BR>
> device. If you want to see a full blown BEMS check out<BR>
> <a
> href="http://www.trend-
controls.com/General/English.nsf/Docs/Homepage">http://www.trend-
controls.com/General/English.nsf/Docs/Homepage</a>
> we install<BR>
> and commission quite a few of these systems in everything from
football<BR>
> grounds and sports statdia through office blocks and factories. Next
> time<BR>
> you go into B&Q warehouse have a look around, they use them in
most of
> their<BR>
> buildings.<BR>
> <BR>
> <snip><BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Sorry Simon, but I disagree. The savings potential for BEMS in
domestic<BR>
> environments is certainly there because traditional stats and
> programmers<BR>
> are so unsophisticated. But in my view BEMS is a commercial controls
> package<BR>
> that is wholly inadequate for use by non-technical users and therefore
in
> no<BR>
> way suitable for domestic installations. The other problem is that
the<BR>
> performance of the system relies entirely on the commissioning
engineer
> that<BR>
> writes the strategy for the installation, and if the strategy is poor
> then<BR>
> the control performance will be equally poor. The final problem is
cost
> -<BR>
> the BEMS equipment requires an enclosure and switchgear as well
as<BR>
> specialist programming and installation which means even a basic
system<BR>
> would probably cost more than £1000, probably 10 times the cost of the
> basic<BR>
> controls it will replace. Factor in the savings and you would have a
> simple<BR>
> payback of say 10 years, and that excludes the ongoing costs of
> ownership.<BR>
> What is really needed is a pre-programmed controller that delivers
the<BR>
> required energy saving strategies in a package that offers an
intuitive
> user<BR>
> interface so everyone can use it. It also needs to be simple to
install
> and<BR>
> set up so that any competent heating engineer can fit it, and
be<BR>
> cost-effective as an installed package to encourage take up. For
> domestic<BR>
> systems then the DCD controller looks promising , and I imagine that
the
> the<BR>
> offerings from Honeywell & Siemens etc will start to become
more popular
> as<BR>
> time goes on as well.<BR>
> <BR>
> Neil B.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
> <BR>
> </tt>
>
> <br>
>
> <!-- **begin egp html banner** -->
>
> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
> <td align=center><font size="-1"
color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups
> Sponsor</b></font></td>
> </tr>
> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
> <td align=center width=470><table border=0 cellpadding=0
cellspacing=0> <tr>
> <td align=center><font face=arial
size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a
>
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12c2vktk0/M=267637.4116719.5338353.1261774/D=egrou
pweb/S=1705041992:HM/EXP=1070359037/A=1853618/R=0/*http://www.netflix.com/Defaul
t?mqso=60178338&partid=4116719"
> alt=""><img
> src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ne/netflix/yhoo1103_a_300250A.gif";
> alt="click here" width="300"
height="250"
border="0"></a></td></tr></table>
> </td>
> </tr>
> <tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
> src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?
M=267637.4116719.5338353.1261774/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1853618/rand=504108024"></
td></tr>
> </table>
>
> <!-- **end egp html banner** -->
>
>
> <br>
> <tt>
> UKHA 2004: 15th and 16th May 2004<BR>
> <BR>
> <a href="http://www.automatedhome.co.uk";>http://www.automatedhome.co.uk</a>
> <BR>
> Post message: ukha_d@xxxxxxx <BR>
> Subscribe: ukha_d-subscribe@xxxxxxx <BR>
> Unsubscribe: ukha_d-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx <BR>
> List owner: ukha_d-owner@xxxxxxx</tt>
> <br>
>
> <br>
> <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
> href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/";>Yahoo!
Terms of Service</a>.</tt>
> </br>
>
> </body></html>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------
Everyone should have http://www.freedom2surf.net/
Home |
Main Index |
Thread Index
|
![http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ne/netflix/yhoo1103_a_300250A.gif"](http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ne/netflix/yhoo1103_a_300250A.gif"){kind=link}