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Re: IRM +FirM Interfacing Update


  • To: <ukha_d@xxxxxxx>
  • Subject: Re: IRM +FirM Interfacing Update
  • From: "Dan" <dtoma@xxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:31:10 +0300
  • Mailing-list: list ukha_d@xxxxxxx; contact ukha_d-owner@xxxxxxx
  • References: <006e01c27c44$82012a50$fe9b01d4@xxxxxxx>
  • Reply-to: ukha_d@xxxxxxx

> Feedback from where? When a command is received in the AutoM8it framework,
> then you can decide there what to do, generating an output event... You
will
> know at that time the command received and the zone, so you can do what
you
> want at that specific input event... Where is the feedback?
>   and Frank wrote this:
>It does analyze the signal and responds by sending a ir signal which the
> receiver picks up and sents back again to hv or pc.......Its like when you
> bring a guitar close to the speakers of an amp you get feedback and  the
> squealing noise is the result..........The only thing i can think of is if
> the RX Mode is disabled before and 500msec after a transmission has
occurred
> that might work... will ask Dan.......

So.. you've been asking me...;)
The things are not so complicated. My send routine disable the receive
routine (which is something like a monitoring function, based on polling the
infrared input)...so when something is send, the monitoring is deactivated.
This is a must not only for feedback only, but the send and receive is done
through the same serial port.

I do not know how the HomeVision system works, but... as regarding to the
aplication, this is all.




> so I was a bit confused... But if you say that there's no problem with
> feedback if I go for your software and FirM, then I'll trust you.:-).

If you need further information, please send me a mail.
I don't want to trust me just because I say so.

:-)
BR,
Dan


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Dan [mailto:dtoma@xxxxxxx]
  Sent: 25 October 2002 14:27
  To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx   Subject: Re: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing Update


  > Sorry Dan,
  > I obviously don't understand properly how this all IR stuff works.
  > What's the "carrier". I suppose that's some high frequency IR signal
  >modulates.

  In order to be able to filter the signal at the receiver, this is
modulated
  with a carrier, usualy between 30 and 40KHz.
  In that way, you have two main advantages:
      - can put a filter to increase the S/N ration
      - as the fill factor is less than 1/2, usually 1/3 or less, the LED
can
  drive a very big current for a short period of time and the range can be
  increase

  >  I see that there are two types of IR signals, one with, and one without
  > "carrier".
  > I suppose that remotes use carrier.

  Mainly ...yes.... it is an old IR protocol used by ITT, with very small
  pulses and without a carrier, but the single advantage of that protocol
was
  that it require a very small current to operate, increasing dramatically
  remote battery life. As as cons, the range was not so good and the
bouncing
  on walls is not as good as on carrier based protocols. So remotes can use
  both....
  .. and more

  > Here you say that FirM transmitts signal without carrier.
  No... What I want to say is that IRM send the command to the FirM infrared
  output interface without a carrier, because Firm himself modulates the
  signal with the 38KHz carrier and drive the infrared LED.
  IRM can generate the carrier too, if is used with a TxD based interface
(you
  have an option in the interface)... then the carrier is software
generated,
  so you can use a simple IR LED connected to the TxD pin to send IR
commands.

  > What the equipment understand? Both?
  I do not understand this question.....

  > My whole idea for preventing feedback was to modify original signal in a
  way
  > that it will still be understood by receiving equipment (TV, video), but
  > FirM and your software will be able to detect that it has been modify,
so
  > you'll not analyze and transmit it anymore.

  Feedback from where? When a command is received in the AutoM8it framework,
  then you can decide there what to do, generating an output event... You
will
  know at that time the command received and the zone, so you can do what
you
  want at that specific input event... Where is the feedback?


  > By detecting those
  > modifications, you will know that it already passed through FirM and
your
  > software and passing it though again would generate feedback.

  As you will use IRM plugin for both input and output, the feedback is
  excluded, because during a command send, the receiving routine is stopped,
  in the application. No need for other precautions.
  If you mean by feedback the possibility to receive your own generated
  command and generate an infinite loop, this is not possible with my
  application.

  > I hope that you understood me. I don't know how to translate that in
bits
  > and "carriers". Maybe such thing is not possible to achieve?

  Not only possible, it is .... REAL..:-))

  Best regards,
  Dan

  Cheers,
  Nik
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Dan [mailto:dtoma@xxxxxxx]
    Sent: 25 October 2002 12:51
    To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx     Subject: Re: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing Update


    Hi Nikola,

    > Regarding feedback, I thought that "brain" (PC, Homevision) analyzes
any
    > signal received from zones and then decides where to transfer it. That
    way,
    > if I use TV remote in Living room, where TV itself is located, it
    recognizes
    > the code as TV command and knows that there is no need for
transferring
    that
    > code to other rooms or to living room itself, because TV can receive
    command
    > from remote controller directly.

    If you will use AutoM8it, then this will be easily possible, based on
    events.
    Anyhow, the system does not pass IR commands by himself.

    > If you send a TV command from bedroom, it knows that there's no TV
there
    and
    > transmitts command in the living room only, because it knows that TV
is
    >there.
    The same comment.

    > Can Dan put some more inteligence in signal, e.g. by putting one or
two
    > extra bits at the end of the original signal as "identifiers". "Brain"
    will
    > then know if it receives such signal that it was sent by FirM so it
will
    not
    > transmit it anymore. Such "identifier" bits should not be recognized
by
    any
    > of the equipment as commands.

    If I understand well, you want to use two systems in paralel? The signal
    generated by the PC is the IR command (without the carrier if using
FirM),
    so if I put some extra bits, then it will not contain a valid IR
command.
    Please be more specific.

    Thank you,
    Dan


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Frank Mc Alinden [mailto:armagh@xxxxxxx]
      Sent: 25 October 2002 11:47
      To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx       Subject: Re: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing Update


      Hi Nik
                  The cat5 socket is the highest component so around
      10-15mm....Remember though a cat5 plug goes into it....

      IR Feedback
      If you use blaster type emitters then when you press the button on
your
      remote pointed at the rx unit the response from the pc (ir signal)
will
    get
      send out of the blaster ir led picked up by the tv or whatever and
also
    the
      zone rx unit and sent back again to the pc and just goes into an tx rx
      loop...........

      Frank


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Nikola Kasic" <nikola@xxxxxxx>
      To: <ukha_d@xxxxxxx>
      Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 8:04 PM
      Subject: RE: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing Update


      > Hi Frank,
      > Just checked my single gang box.
      > Dimensions are 68x68x25mm
      > So probably it will fit into double gang one.
      > Can you tell me what's the depth of the device?
      >
      > There's no way for me to bring CAT5 close enough to use stick on
    emitters.
      >
      > What are feedback problems?
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Nik
      >   -----Original Message-----
      >   From: Frank Mc Alinden [mailto:armagh@xxxxxxx]
      >   Sent: 24 October 2002 12:19
      >   To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx       >   Subject: Re: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing Update
      >
      >
      >   Hi Nik
      >               I think there would be problems if using ir blaster
type
      >   emitting......i have only tested the system with stick on
      > emitters........Im
      >   sure there would be feedback problems...Have you located your cat5
      points
      >   above were your equipment is....if so is there any way you can get
a
      thin
      >   type speaker wire down to the equipment to use for emitters????
      >   > And if it is, will it fit into a single gang box?
      >   Its been a long time since i seen a UK plate.....the pcb is around
    75mm
      x
      >   50mm
      >
      >   Frank
      >   ----- Original Message -----
      >   From: "Nikola Kasic" <nikola@xxxxxxx>
      >   To: <ukha_d@xxxxxxx>
      >   Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 8:13 PM
      >   Subject: RE: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing Update
      >
      >
      >   > Hoooray!
      >   > Three times...
      >   > But, of course, nothing is perfect, so to get SWMBO approval i
  would
      > like
      >   to
      >   > put transmitters and receivers high on the wall in a box behind
a
      > blanking
      >   > plate. I would then drill a hole in a plate for IR LEDs.
      >   > Is something like that possible?
      >   > And if it is, will it fit into a single gang box?
      >   > And will single CAT5 cable be enough for both Tx and Rx?
      >   > Electrician put the cables throug the strategic points last
week,
    and
      > he's
      >   > not finished yet. I left enough length curled and hidden for the
      future
      > IR
      >   > solution, but if I can do it the way I plan, I might order
      >   > transmitters/receivers and ask electrician to put boxes in place
  and
      >   cables
      >   > through wall to each box.
      >   >
      >   > Dan's idea of controling lights via IR is interesting.
      >   > But where transmitters must be placed relative to IR receiver on
    light
      >   > switch? Can they be on the same wall? That means that IR signal
  will
      > have
      >   to
      >   > bounce off the walls. Is that possible and will they bounce off
  any
      wall
      >   and
      >   > furniture, or just some (e.g. wall carpets).
      >   >
      >   > Cheers
      >   > Nik
      >   >   -----Original Message-----
      >   >   From: Frank Mc Alinden [mailto:armagh@xxxxxxx]
      >   >   Sent: 22 October 2002 20:40
      >   >   To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx       >   >   Subject: Re: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing Update
      >   >
      >   >
      >   >   Thats correct Nik
      >   >                               Hopefully when finished (the pc
      interface)
      >   a
      >   > pc
      >   >   user can have a multizone rx tx /rx using Automat8it software
  with
      > Dans
      >   >   plugins and my pc interface + FirM .
      >   >
      >   >   Frank
      >   >   ----- Original Message -----
      >   >   From: "Nikola Kasic" <nikola@xxxxxxx>
      >   >   To: <ukha_d@xxxxxxx>
      >   >   Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 1:35 AM
      >   >   Subject: RE: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing Update
      >   >
      >   >
      >   >   > Frank, if I understand properly, with IRM and FirM you can
use
    PC
      >   >   (Autom8it)
      >   >   > as a brain and control where the commands will be
transmitted.
      That
      >   way
      >   > IR
      >   >   > commands will not be sent through the whole house, but to
the
      >   >   pre-programed
      >   >   > zones only. Also, we don't need a HV for controling FirM,
but
    can
      > use
      >   > PC.
      >   >   > Can you tell me am I right?
      >   >   > Cheers,
      >   >   > Nik
      >   >   >   -----Original Message-----
      >   >   >   From: Frank Mc Alinden [mailto:armagh@xxxxxxx]
      >   >   >   Sent: 22 October 2002 12:38
      >   >   >   To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx       >   >   >   Subject: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing Update
      >   >   >
      >   >   >
      >   >   >   HI all
      >   >   >           Just a quick update on were Dan and I are at with
  Dans
      IRM
      >   and
      >   >   my
      >   >   > FirM....
      >   >   >
      >   >   >   Well at the moment Using Dans software the pc can send a
tx
    zone
      >   > command
      >   >   > to the FirM Interface and select a tx zone on
firm.......Also
    when
      > an
      >   ir
      >   >   > signal is received by Dans software it asks the interface
for
    zone
      > id
      >   > and
      >   >   > displays it on the pc........At this point im trying to get
my
    ir
      >   sytem
      >   >   > (firm + hv) to respond to a txed ir signal with little luck
  not
      sure
      >   if
      >   >   its
      >   >   > a hardware problem????
      >   >   >
      >   >   >   More Soon
      >   >   >
      >   >   >   Frank
      >   >   >
      >   >   >   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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