RE: Possible Clipsal UKHA HA Lighting buy - with xAP gateway

["Kevin Hawkins" <lists@xxxxxxx>]

Hi Mike,

   The dimmers are 216cm in length , this is true of the 4 CH and= 8 H - the
4 H are 2A per channel and the 8 CH are only 1A per channel. This is lower<= BR> than the X10 units (2.5A) - I think the size is probably very much based on=
the effective heat dissipation required for each. On other products I think=
you are advised to leave spaces between adjacent units when housed.  T= his
size includes the inbuilt PSU module and the C-Bus controller.  12CH r= elays
are the same width although 4 Ch are only 144mm. This width is about the space required for 3 LD11's with a small space between or almost 4 without<= BR> space. Not sure how 'small' your consumer units are. Every load is locally<= BR> switchable.

    The Clipsal units would just be a swap replacement for t= he existing DIN
X10 units - no extra cables needed on the mains side. Each Clipsal DIN unit=
requires L N E feed plus units with an inbuilt PSU require an extra L &= N.
One unit on your Clipsal network must have an inbuilt PSU which powers the<= BR> whole network. Strangely enough the price for a dimmer unit with a psu is only about =A310 more than a unit without. They just feed one 'switched liv= e'
back to the light or power outlet. You would need a twisted pair into each<= BR> consumer unit to daisychain or star wire the Clipsal control bus - any
Clipsal switches you install will need a twisted pair bus connection.

   Kevin


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Griffiths [mailto:mike@xxxxxxx]
Sent: 14 December 2002 01:25
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Possible Clipsal UKHA HA Lighting buy - with xAP
gateway

  Kevin
  I have modified my lighting so that I have 6 small consumer units ar= ound
the
  house (in cupboards ) I can easily get control cables to these
  How easy is it to substitute Clipsal for X10 Din units with regard t= o the
  Mains Wiring and size of unit?
  Local switch control is not an issue as I have none!!


  Mike


  > -----Original Message-----
  > From: Kevin Hawkins [mailto:lists@xxxxxxx]
  > Sent: 14 December 2002 00:41
  > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx   > Subject: [ukha_d] Possible Clipsal UKHA HA Lighting buy - with = xAP
gateway
  >
  > Hello All...
  >
  >  Time for some good news on two fronts.
  >
  >     First , with the xAP 1.2 specification = now out the door I can now
  > announce that we are in discussions with Clipsal about the poss= ibility
of
  > providing a link between C-Bus2 and xAP. This would allow the e= xtensive
  > range of Clipsal C-Bus products to be controlled from and to co= ntrol xAP
  > based devices. This would create a professional range of CE app= roved, UK
  > compatible wall switches,  dimmers, relays, PIR sensors, l= ight and
  > temperature sensors and infra red receivers and transmitters in= a range
of
  > styles and colours for the home installer. Clipsal is the numbe= r one
brand
  > of electrical accessories in Asia and Australia and in the top = 5
worldwide
  > so I am delighted that they have shown such an interest in xAP.= Clipsal
  > lighting installations have been used extensively in commercial=
buildings,
  > hotels and perhaps most prestigiously in the recent Olympic Sta= dium
  > builds.
  > I understand our own Wembley Stadium will be using C-Bus2 too.<= BR>   >
  >     Secondly , I am hopeful that based on s= ome reasonable demand from
  > people
  > on this list that we will be able to put together a starter bun= dle of
  > products that will be at special price for the UKHA/xAP enthusi= asts. The
  > C-Bus solution offers a 100% reliable and near instantaneous li= ghting
and
  > power control system achieved through it's interconnection of s= witches
by
  > a
  > single pair of wires normally contained in a CAT5 cable run. Th= is is
it's
  > critical advantage over X10 and wireless type solutions. Whilst= we will
  > not
  > be able to quite reach the price points of say X10 I hope that = the added
  > 'professional' level of this system will be attractive to many.=
  >
  >     Timescales ? - Well we have a lot of de= velopment work to do on the
xAP
  > gateway and this is likely to be available in a couple of diffe= rent
  > implementations. Fairly quickly, allowing for Xmas -say within = 8 weeks
we
  > should have the 'software' version  of the gateway availab= le which will
  > require that you purchase a C-Bus interface, either the RS232/P= C
interface
  > or the Ethernet interface. Early beta versions of this gateway = will be
  > made
  > available soon . A later development will be to offer our own x= AP
gateway
  > that itself directly attaches to C-Bus and contains an embedded=
processor
  > running the xAP gateway. This may be around two months after th= e
software
  > gateway. This latter option should be more cost effective. All = these
  > timescales are best guesses at this stage.
  >
  >     Clipsal C-Bus is a standalone , control= ler less lighting
  > implementation
  > with a freeform topology wiring arrangement meaning that a sing= le pair
of
  > cables runs between all C-Bus devices providing both power and<= BR>   > communications. The devices may be daisychained or connected in= a star
  > arrangement, or indeed combinations of the two. The power contr= ol
devices
  > are DIN mounted and provide a range of lamp dimmer circuits and= power
  > switching relay circuits. The wiring of the DIN units is simila= r to that
  > of
  > the X10 DIN units (LD11 LD/AD10) in that the power feeds to the= lights /
  > power outlets are brought back in the same way to the consumer = unit
where
  > the DIN modules are mounted. Indeed if you have AD10's or LD11'= s already
  > the
  > load switching wiring is already present.  The switches ar= e
interconnected
  > throughout the house by the C-Bus pair (e.g. CAT5) and only one= pair is
  > brought back to the consumer unit for all switches , so to that= extent
it
  > is
  > much easier. Anyone who has had the forethought and planning to= run CAT5
  > to
  > behind their light switches is well rewarded here !
  >
  >     Some information on C-Bus can be found = here
http://www.clipsal.com/cis
  > although I have found the website a little confusing , there is= a new UK
  > catalogue out and I can email interested parties with some info= rmation
if
  > you contact me (offlist) - please use Clipsal_xAP@xxxxxxx. = I may
have
  > some printed catalogues available too. One of the new switches = called
the
  > 'Neo' is particularly worth a look
  > ht= tp://www.clipsal.com/cis/newproducts_neo.php3.
  >
  >    The question no doubt your asking is - what's= the cost ? Well as in
all
  > things it's a little bit chicken and egg, I have no idea on the= quantity
  > take-up yet but assuming we have some reasonable interest I am = going to
  > 'guess' around the following. Please not these are not individu= al
prices,
  > the kit will only be available as a number of different bundles= , I have
  > simply tried to allow you to guess what it may cost for your ow= n desired
  > configuration.  Each dimmer channel will cost around =A340= and each relay
  > channel about =A325 - however these are in a block of 8 dimmer = circuits
and
  > 12
  > relays, there are smaller units available but they are not cost=
effective.
  > Overall the relays work out  cheaper than the equivalent X= 10 DIN module
  > and
  > the dimmers more expensive (X10 are =A335 approx per channel fo= r both). A
4
  > gang switch costs around =A350 and this doesn't vary much with = the number
of
  > gangs so a 4 way is about the same cost as a single gang. A sin= gle gang
  > X10
  > switch costs =A330, although this includes the load switching c= ircuitry,
no
  > multi-gang or multi-way switches are available from X10 althoug= h with
the
  > DIN modules you can use standard momentary switches. The Clipsa= l
switches
  > support full two way (n-way) switching, indeed any switch can c= ontrol
many
  > different lighting circuits simultaneously and you can instantl= y re-
  > program
  > which switches control what without any wiring changes. Worth m= entioning
  > too
  > is that you can continue to use your existing switches if you w= ish by
use
  > of
  > a little box that goes behind the switch and supports 4 gang sw= itches
  > called
  > a C-Bus coupler. I have yet to get pricing on these but probabl= y
  > =A315/switch
  > . Ideally for full HA use (dimming etc) your switches should be=
momentary
  > types though.
  >
  >    On top of this you will need some form of C-B= us network interface -
  > this
  > might be the PC (RS232) interface, the Ethernet interface for t= hose real
  > enthusiasts or the xAP gateway module. Both C-Gates interfaces = are
  > expensive
  > =A3250/=A3500 although the xAP gateway may come in at around = =A3100.
  >
  >    So overall an 8 channel lighting setup with s= ay 4 x (4 gang) switches
  > and
  > the xAP gateway - around =A3620 ???
  >           ...=      a 12 channel power (appliance) switching setup wit= h
same
  > switches & gateway - around =A3600
  >          &nbs= p;        a 12 channel power switching += 8 lighting channels
with
  > same switches & gateway - around =A3820
  >
  >    Of course you might not need the the Clipsal = switches at all - if you
  > are
  > controlling the dimmers / relays directly from xAP then you can= do away
  > with
  > these - or conversely you might just use Clipsal's switches as = xAP
sources
  > and use them for your own triggering purposes.
  >
  >    So - big question - is there an interest at t= his level ? - please
  > contact
  > me offlist and let me know , or perhaps with any comments (
  > Clipsal_xAP@xxxxxxx ). I must stress that I am not here&nbs= p; to make
money
  > out of this, this is effectively a bulk buy possibility and als= o a
feeler
  > as
  > to whether it is worth putting the effort into the development = and
  > manufacture of the Clipsal to xAP gateway device . I would hope= perhaps
  > though to recover some of my costs. I am not worried about the = time and
  > effort to do this but I would like to feel that people would be=
interested
  > in the final product ...
  >
  >   I would also like to mention that John Tankard is w= orking on a similar
  > lighting control product with a native xAP interface connection= , doing
  > away
  > with the extra gateway needs - from comments he has made I thin= k he may
  > well
  > achieve a lower cost solution, although I don't think he will b= e seeking
  > CE
  > approval. Clipsal's remaining products would still complement t= his
  > offering
  > and hopefully there will be some xAP native switches on the way= too
  > eventually.
  >
  >    Please feel free to ask questions about C-Bus= - I have recently moved
  > over from an X10 based installation to C-Bus and I am delighted= , Rob
  > Mouser
  > of this list was the influence in this decision. I know we are = both very
  > happy with the change. Questions of general interest for all to= the list
  > please and to me directly for showing a level of interest/disin= terest.
  >
  >      Kevin
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
  > http://www.automated= home.co.uk
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