Re: Vantage vs. Lutron

[The Electrician <arie391@xxxxxxxxx>]

I know this is an old thread but I stumbled on here because I have installe=
d and/or serviced both companies' systems for over a decade and have been a=
round long enough to work with the current Generations:  For Vantage, it us=
ed to be the Qlink system and later the Infusion system.  For Lutron, they =
had the whole home Interactive which was followed by Illuminations, which w=
as followed by Homeworks QS and of course they had Radio Ra as their DIY/lo=
wer end system which was replaced by the much more powerful Radio Ra2 and n=
ow they have Caseta, RA2 select and a whole bunch of other mini-systems.  =
=20

The only systems I haven't worked with are the original Vantage Vision and =
the original Homeworks because well, they're really really old and I couldn=
't even run the software or find parts so he best thing there is to get a n=
ew upgrade. Anyway, I hope if another homeowner stumbles on this thread, I =
can uh, shed some light on the topic.

First a little history.  It used to be that Lighting Automation was VERY ex=
pensive.  Like unbelievably expensive and only those with 4 million dollar =
houses could afford them.  They were also very clunky and essentially just =
let you put in some scenes, all via wired control wires and local dimming. =
 Soon, installers and decorators started hiding the dimmers to have a "clea=
n" look so centralized panel based systems became the status symbol for the=
 very rich.

There were only 3 companies that did this - Lutron in PA, Lite-Touch in UT,=
 and Vantage that was also in UT.  Lutron was the big name because well, th=
ey invented the dimmer and much like with IBM, nobody ever got fired by ins=
talling Lutron's products.  Lite-Touch to me seemed a little outdated and V=
antage's products seemed like a much better version of Lite-Touch. =20

I'm not going to lie - I loved Vantage. They were small, very scrappy, enth=
usiastic, and it was easy to have a relationship with their support, engine=
ers, and sales and customer support people. I also loved their panel system=
s over Lutron because it was modular and the addressing was far easier than=
 Lutron's then antiquated dip switch addressing.  To this day you have to m=
anually set the addresses on RPMs and such with Lutron. =20

Don't get me wrong, I loved Lutron too but they seemed more like the jocks =
because they had a much bigger budget, invite installers for free training,=
 buy meals, give away screw drivers, and more importantly, their products w=
ere very good.  Their wireless systems in particular were always lightyears=
 better than anybody else in my opinion, even Vantage.=20

So, my position to customers was that if it was a retrofit, Lutron was the =
way to go and if it was a centralized system, Vantage was not going to take=
 a 2nd seat to no-one and even though they didn't have as many color option=
s or the elegance of Lutron, they would be a great choice and we'd highly r=
ecommend them.=20

Around this time, whole home automation also began to get popular and all t=
hese fancy houses had to have their Crestron, Control 4, Savant, ELAN, etc.=
 etc. systems and Vantage who started in lighting started pivoting more tow=
ards that market by offering AV products, touch screens and the above menti=
oned companies started pivoting towards lighting.  Lutron on the other hand=
 stuck with lighting which also included shades (sun is a light after all) =
and was happy to just be the lighting and have other systems link into it. =
=20

Once the iPhone came out, it was a complete game changer.  Everybody wanted=
 apps and more and more demand for lighting automation was there so both co=
mpanies updated their systems and Vantage brought out its beautiful Infusio=
n system and soon Lutron came out with their clear connect wireless systems=
 and Homeworks QS and Radio Ra2 came out. =20

Both had apps but Lutron's was far more user friendly in my opinion because=
 it would just take the existing house and put it on the app. No fuss. Vant=
age on the other hand was really into AV by now so the installer had to cus=
tom design it and it was not very intuitive. Maybe for AV guys who work wit=
h Crestron type systems it made sense, but to me, it was not fun. =20

To make matters worse, once things moved towards cloud based, Lutron shined=
 with their new DIY Caseta system and then seamlessly added cloud to their =
existing dealer systems (with just a connect bridge) and as far as I know, =
Vantage still doesn't have that.=20

A couple other "game changing moments" also happened: LED lights became pop=
ular and the norm and SAVANT bought Lite-Touch and ended Lite-Touch systems=
.  Also, the large French company Legrand bought Vantage. I'll come back to=
 the latter in a bit.

LED light dimming turned out to be extremely difficult. The way a lot of sm=
art dimmers and dimming modules worked, they put out some voltage to the lo=
ad.  There are engineering reasons for that which I am not fully aware of b=
ut I do know that there was a minimum load requirement and with LED's that =
wasn't met so all kinds of things were going wrong with all 3 systems with =
LED lights initially.

Lights would flicker, lights would not go off, etc. Surprisingly, the vanta=
ge and Lutron power modules handled LEDs pretty well, but the in wall dimme=
rs from Lutron didn't fare so well so both companies completely redid their=
 dimmers - Vantage has a new standing dimming module that is great and all =
of Lutron's dimmers now are CL rated or you can get ELV dimmers. =20

As such, to answer Mike's question from 5 years ago (which would mean he ha=
s the older dimming modules and this wouldn't apply lol), you really can't =
go wrong with either system if your concern is LED lighting.  They've all f=
igured it out and I've used both systems just fine with LEDs. =20

The biggest issue I see now is that centralized systems are a ticking timeb=
omb.  Sooner or later, that processor or (master controller as Vantage call=
s it), will go out.  IF you're lucky that the company is still around, AND =
if you're lucky that there is a dealer in your area, AND you're lucky that =
they service or have the part available, it's only a few thousand dollars y=
ou'll spend.  Typically you're fine for the first 5 years but I've seen sys=
tems fail even after 3 years. =20

After seeing how Savant treated Lite-Touch, and Legrand bought Vantage, I w=
as worried about what was coming down the line. All of a sudden, the sales =
and tech support wasn't as friendly and down to earth as they used to be.  =
All of a sudden, buildings where we would send things to got changed...Then=
 announcement after announcement about upcoming products to match other Leg=
rand products and it seemed Vantage really wanted to go after the full home=
 automation market than lighting.

For me, I don't do AV so I was in a tough spot because builders usually hav=
e their electrical guy and their AV guy. It used to be electrical guys also=
 do lighting and only lighting and the AV guy does the rest and ties in. =
=20

I'm biased so i think lighting and electrical should be done by the electri=
cal guy because we understand lighting loads, and it's better to have the s=
ame guy programming the house doing the high voltage stuff to catch issues =
and have one person to blame when things go wrong.  Not to mention most ser=
vice calls in the future have an electrical source that neither an AV guy n=
or a typical electrician can touch.   Now that it's all tied together, vant=
age really seemed to look at electricians as second class dealers.

When you're buying a dealer installed system, having a good dealer is very =
important because dealers come and go all the time and some focus more on n=
ew systems while others on repairs and a homeowner can end up with a bad de=
aler who rather than wanting to fix something, will sell them a new system.=
=20

One question I'm always asked in a sales meeting with a potential new custo=
mer is "if you're not around, will we find other dealers to work on this" a=
nd I would always tell the customer to check out their website and see how =
many authorized dealers are in their area.   With Lutron, it was super easy=
 because they have many many dealers both AV or electrical variety.  With V=
antage, not so much.  Mostly AV guys and kind of far away.=20

I won't get into too much details here because the wounds are fresh but the=
 new sales regime at Vantage without warning terminated what they deemed as=
 low performing dealers so there are even less dealers around.  I think ult=
imately this will hurt their customers because the new dealers who sell a l=
ot of systems weren't around for the older systems and they are going to be=
 like horse doctors that will just tell people to get a new system. =20

TLDR;
Because of this, I think the best choice right now is to go with Lutron and=
 completely stay away from a centralized system. Lutron has many dealers, 2=
4/7 tech support, the best apps both cloud based and local, and the best wi=
reless and retrofit systems.  If you go with a non-centralized system, even=
 if they do go out of business, you're still back to regular switches on yo=
ur wall. =20

You can always go with wall mounted power modules hidden away a bit too and=
 those will also work if the processor goes or you need to change to anothe=
r system and there are far more choices in the non-central vs. central syst=
ems.

Only get a centralized system if you can afford to spend another $10-$50,00=
0 in 10-20 years updating your system. =20

And honestly, I think for most people, a Radio Ra2 system is more than what=
 they need.