Re: 32 years using x-10

["BruceR" <razrbruce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Pat, Glad to hear you decided on the XTB-IIR. You're making the right
choice.


 greenpjs wrote:
> Bobby,
> From one Mr. Green to another, thanks for your reply.  I received a
> total of four replies (one via private email) and all of them
> recommended the XTB-IIR as the closest thing to a silver bullet there
> is.  I think I will order one.  (It will be fun building a kit again.
> Heathkit used to get a lot of business from me back in the day -
> stereo, TVs, ham radio.)
>
> Regarding a meter, I do have an ESM1, but it hasn't been very useful
> solving the latest round of problems.  I am wondering if there isn't
> some sort of issue with frequency rather than strength.  For example,
> I have two different RF transceivers.  One is an older RR501.  The
> other is a TM751.   One works better than the other even though they
> provide similar signal strengths (according to the ESM1) when plugged
> in the same outlet.  Could one be a little off the 120 kHz frequency?
> Perhaps some receivers are more sensitive to that than others.  I wish
> I had an oscilloscope.
>
> Anyway, thanks to all who replied.  You have been very helpful.
>
> Pat
>
>
> On Fri, 2 May 2008 10:46:40 -0400, "Robert Green"
> <ROBERT_GREEN1963@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> "greenpjs" <greenpjs@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:dk8k14p46mq3vr7e8e2ik645ea1krs8utp@xxxxxxxxxx
>>> (I posted this in alt.home.automation yesterday.  I thought I would
>>> try this group today.  Any input?)
>>>
>>> Background:
>>>
>>> I've been successfully using X-10 for 32 years now.  Like many of
>>> you, I have had my share of issues but always managed to use
>>> filters and phase couplers to solve them.  Again, like many of you,
>>> the last five years have seen the level of intermittent operation
>>> increase.  Every new piece of electronics brought into the house
>>> usually requires another day of troubleshooting.  I managed to swap
>>> circuits around in the breaker box such that all X-10 equipment is
>>> on one side of the box thereby eliminating the need for a phase
>>> coupler, but problems still occur.  Of the 16 modules in use (all
>>> on one house code), 14 work all the time while the other 2 work
>>> most of the time.  It's that "most of time" that drives me nuts.
>>> (By the way, our house is a little over 1300 sq ft in size plus a
>>> basement so I don't think my issues are caused by excessively long
>>> runs).
>>
>> Unfortunately, you're at the point where you need to spend money on
>> a meter like the ESM1 to have even an inkling of what's happening on
>> the powerline. Trying to diagnose X-10 problems via a binary
>> "works/does't work" method is occasionally successful, but more
>> often not.  A meter will tell you whether you have a noise problem,
>> a signal sucker problem, a bad transmitter, collision problems, etc.
>> It should pay for itself in short order if you put any reasonable
>> value on your time.
>>
>>> The question:
>>>
>>>
>>> Is it time to upgrade to a new technology?  Insteon, Z-Wave,
>>> Zigbee, + etc all sound promising, but I have no real experience
>>> with them. What, in your opinion, is the right choice if I were to
>>> decide to start over?  Which, if any, of the above has a chance to
>>> be around decades from now such that spare parts will still be
>>> available?
>>
>> You'll need a crystal ball to answer that question, but consider
>> this.  The 110VAC network has changed little in 100 years.  I have
>> table lamps from the '30s that work quite well today.  X-10 has been
>> around for 30+ years but none of the contenders has that sort of
>> track record.  When you eliminate the known problems, there's no
>> reason for it not to last another 30 years. One thing to consider
>> about low power RF controls is that in this ever more wireless
>> world, your RF controls are more and more likely to get stepped on
>> by a higher powered radio signal.  This has already happened to one
>> of the most expensive HA protocols on the market, Lutron RadioRA.
>> They were forced to provide users with special gear (they refer to
>> it as channel B) when users in NYC reported their systems no longer
>> functioned.
>>
>> Nearly *ANY* RF protocol can get squashed like that and there's not
>> a thing you can do to stop it except moving into a Faraday cage.
>> X-10's powerline protocol, though saddled with its own issues, can
>> be isolated from glitches or legit transmissions on the power grid
>> by a "firewall" far more easily. With all the new RF spectrum sales
>> and realignments along with the anti-terrorism efforts to thwart RF
>> controlled devices, I've become very dubious of any RF system
>> working well into the future, especially the low-powered unlicensed
>> devices.
>>
>>> Secondary question:
>>>
>>>
>>> Why is the new stuff so expensive?  I have typically paid $10 - $15
>>> for X-10 modules.   (Although I have to admit that has been true all
>>> these years in spite of inflation).  The new stuff seems to cost $50
>>> to $70 per module.  I just retired so I'm watching my spending...
>>> $69 is a lot of money for a wall switch.  Multiply that by 16 or so
>>> modules and add a few controllers (manual controllers and a computer
>>> interface) and we are talking a lot of money.  Maybe I should just
>>> buy a few more X-10 filters ;-)
>>
>> The X-10 cost is low because the patent has expired, the designs are
>> already out there and the components used are incredibly cheap
>> compared to the custom IC's found in the newer gear.  Buying
>> filters, an XTB and an X-10 meter is still way cheaper than
>> upgrading even a modest system.  With the big downturn in housing, I
>> would expect one of the current players not to survive very much
>> longer.  Do you want to replace all your X-10 gear with "Zigwaveon"
>> only to find you've been orphaned when they go out of business? I've
>> seen that happen in the PC world and it makes the remaining spare
>> parts as precious as gold because of their scarcity.  Not a position
>> I want to be in if a meter, some filters and an XTB could set things
>> straight.
>>
>>> Final question:
>>>
>>>
>>> If I stay with X-10, do the signal boosters I see discussed here
>>> really work?  Many of the devices are designed to solve the
>>> cross-phase issue which I don't have (as stated above, all my X-10
>>> equipment is on one phase).   While I do believe my problems are
>>> caused by low signal levels rather than noise, I believe the low
>>> signals are caused by each new electronic appliance cutting the
>>> signal just a little more.  There isn't any one thing I can unplug
>>> which solves all the issues.   Filters have solved the big issues
>>> (eg, Sony TV's), but I'm guessing that many minor issues are now
>>> adding up to an overall marginal situation.
>>
>> You'd have to describe your installation in much greater detail for
>> us to make a guess at what's ailing your setup, but I am guessing
>> you've missed several signal suckers or noise generators.  Got any
>> CFL's or fluorescents running unfiltered?  My first step would be to
>> see if completely disconnecting them from the power cures your ills.
>> Then I would buy a meter.  There used to be a vendor who lent or
>> rented them, but since I own a meter and an analyzer, I never needed
>> that service.  Maybe someone here remembers who has them.
>>
>> As for the XTB's working or not.  The answer is emphatically "yes!"
>> I suffered from all sorts of X-10 maladies before installing the
>> XTB-IIR and now they've just vanished back into the blue hell they
>> came from.  I wish all problems had a similar magic bullet.