[no subject]

Regarding a meter, I do have an ESM1, but it hasn't been very useful
solving the latest round of problems.  I am wondering if there isn't
some sort of issue with frequency rather than strength.  For example,
I have two different RF transceivers.  One is an older RR501.  The
other is a TM751.   One works better than the other even though they
provide similar signal strengths (according to the ESM1) when plugged
in the same outlet.  Could one be a little off the 120 kHz frequency?
Perhaps some receivers are more sensitive to that than others.  I wish
I had an oscilloscope.

Anyway, thanks to all who replied.  You have been very helpful.

Pat


On Fri, 2 May 2008 10:46:40 -0400, "Robert Green"
<ROBERT_GREEN1963@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>"greenpjs" <greenpjs@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>news:dk8k14p46mq3vr7e8e2ik645ea1krs8utp@xxxxxxxxxx
>> (I posted this in alt.home.automation yesterday.  I thought I would
>> try this group today.  Any input?)
>>
>> Background:
>>
>> I've been successfully using X-10 for 32 years now.  Like many of you,
>> I have had my share of issues but always managed to use filters and
>> phase couplers to solve them.  Again, like many of you, the last five
>> years have seen the level of intermittent operation increase.  Every
>> new piece of electronics brought into the house usually requires
>> another day of troubleshooting.  I managed to swap circuits around in
>> the breaker box such that all X-10 equipment is on one side of the box
>> thereby eliminating the need for a phase coupler, but problems still
>> occur.  Of the 16 modules in use (all on one house code), 14 work all
>> the time while the other 2 work most of the time.  It's that "most of
>> time" that drives me nuts.  (By the way, our house is a little over
>> 1300 sq ft in size plus a basement so I don't think my issues are
>> caused by excessively long runs).
>
>Unfortunately, you're at the point where you need to spend money on a meter
>like the ESM1 to have even an inkling of what's happening on the powerline.
>Trying to diagnose X-10 problems via a binary "works/does't work" method is
>occasionally successful, but more often not.  A meter will tell you whether
>you have a noise problem, a signal sucker problem, a bad transmitter,
>collision problems, etc.  It should pay for itself in short order if you put
>any reasonable value on your time.
>
>> The question:
>>
>>
>> Is it time to upgrade to a new technology?  Insteon, Z-Wave, Zigbee, +
>> etc all sound promising, but I have no real experience with them.
>> What, in your opinion, is the right choice if I were to decide to
>> start over?  Which, if any, of the above has a chance to be around
>> decades from now such that spare parts will still be available?
>
>You'll need a crystal ball to answer that question, but consider this.  The
>110VAC network has changed little in 100 years.  I have table lamps from the
>'30s that work quite well today.  X-10 has been around for 30+ years but
>none of the contenders has that sort of track record.  When you eliminate
>the known problems, there's no reason for it not to last another 30 years.
>One thing to consider about low power RF controls is that in this ever more
>wireless world, your RF controls are more and more likely to get stepped on
>by a higher powered radio signal.  This has already happened to one of the
>most expensive HA protocols on the market, Lutron RadioRA.  They were forced
>to provide users with special gear (they refer to it as channel B) when
>users in NYC reported their systems no longer functioned.
>
>Nearly *ANY* RF protocol can get squashed like that and there's not a thing
>you can do to stop it except moving into a Faraday cage.  X-10's powerline
>protocol, though saddled with its own issues, can be isolated from glitches
>or legit transmissions on the power grid by a "firewall" far more easily.
>With all the new RF spectrum sales and realignments along with the
>anti-terrorism efforts to thwart RF controlled devices, I've become very
>dubious of any RF system working well into the future, especially the
>low-powered unlicensed devices.
>
>> Secondary question:
>>
>>
>> Why is the new stuff so expensive?  I have typically paid $10 - $15
>> for X-10 modules.   (Although I have to admit that has been true all
>> these years in spite of inflation).  The new stuff seems to cost $50
>> to $70 per module.  I just retired so I'm watching my spending... $69
>> is a lot of money for a wall switch.  Multiply that by 16 or so
>> modules and add a few controllers (manual controllers and a computer
>> interface) and we are talking a lot of money.  Maybe I should just buy
>> a few more X-10 filters ;-)
>
>The X-10 cost is low because the patent has expired, the designs are already
>out there and the components used are incredibly cheap compared to the
>custom IC's found in the newer gear.  Buying filters, an XTB and an X-10
>meter is still way cheaper than upgrading even a modest system.  With the
>big downturn in housing, I would expect one of the current players not to
>survive very much longer.  Do you want to replace all your X-10 gear with
>"Zigwaveon" only to find you've been orphaned when they go out of business?
>I've seen that happen in the PC world and it makes the remaining spare parts
>as precious as gold because of their scarcity.  Not a position I want to be
>in if a meter, some filters and an XTB could set things straight.
>
>> Final question:
>>
>>
>> If I stay with X-10, do the signal boosters I see discussed here
>> really work?  Many of the devices are designed to solve the
>> cross-phase issue which I don't have (as stated above, all my X-10
>> equipment is on one phase).   While I do believe my problems are
>> caused by low signal levels rather than noise, I believe the low
>> signals are caused by each new electronic appliance cutting the signal
>> just a little more.  There isn't any one thing I can unplug which
>> solves all the issues.   Filters have solved the big issues (eg, Sony
>> TV's), but I'm guessing that many minor issues are now adding up to an
>> overall marginal situation.
>
>You'd have to describe your installation in much greater detail for us to
>make a guess at what's ailing your setup, but I am guessing you've missed
>several signal suckers or noise generators.  Got any CFL's or fluorescents
>running unfiltered?  My first step would be to see if completely
>disconnecting them from the power cures your ills.  Then I would buy a
>meter.  There used to be a vendor who lent or rented them, but since I own a
>meter and an analyzer, I never needed that service.  Maybe someone here
>remembers who has them.
>
>As for the XTB's working or not.  The answer is emphatically "yes!"  I
>suffered from all sorts of X-10 maladies before installing the XTB-IIR and
>now they've just vanished back into the blue hell they came from.  I wish
>all problems had a similar magic bullet.