Re: Water heater eating X-10 signal

["Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963@xxxxxxxxx>]

"Mr. Land" <graftonfot@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1177958294.760817.168550@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > This really is a fascinating problem.  I never expected that you'd get 5
> > bars at the light switch.  I'm thinking that for whatever reason, the
signal
> > reaching the wall switches is corrupted and that the earlier threads
> > regarding interaction between the two phases was correct.  If you live
> > near Wash DC, I'd be happy to bring my Monterey analyzer over to see
exactly
> > what's coming out of the wiring at the switch.  This is one of the few
> > instances where an analyzer really trumps an LED bargraph meter since it
> > allows for analysis of the actual bits on the powerline as well as the
noise
> > level in two different parts of the power phase.  My suspicion is that
you'd
> > see the same sort of readout you see when there are collisions on the
line
> > from multiple transmitters.
> >
>
> A most generous offer, thank you very much!

Not as generous as Dan's, by a long shot, but I've lent it out before and as
soon as I did, something went wild on me requiring an analyzer to debug.
They're just too damn expensive to warrant buying a spare, either.

> Unfortunately, I'm pretty far from DC, but I appreciate it.  I actually
have a pretty
> old dual-channel scope and an ACT Scope-Test rig I could try to use, but
I'm
> not sure what I'd be looking for.  I got the Scope Test because I
> already had the 'scope, but I've never used it - I could probably be
> staring right into a garbled X-10 waveform and not know it.

That's where the Monterey (at least IMHO) shines.  You don't need to do
anymore than plug it in and press a mode button.  It's not perfect, but it
shows a lot of information about what it "thinks" it is seeing on the
powerline and records 190 events in its memory.  I would have scrapped X-10
long ago without it.  There should be a serious X-10 User's group with
501(c)3 status that would loan such devices out to members who paid nominal
dues.  They aren't needed often, but they are invaluable to have in
diagnosing problems like yours because they allow you to see what's
happening cycle by cycle on the powerline.  I just wish they were cheaper
because if they were, I'd buy a spare I could lend out to folks like you.

> > From what you've told me, you have the Leviton repeater piggy-backed
onto
> > existing breakers.  My recollection of the instruction manual (I own
one,
> > but long ago put it in the "for Ebay" bin) is that they want you to use
> > dedicated breakers.  It may only be a code issue, but it could also be a
way
> > to decrease load interactions with the unit.  I only mention it because
we
> > are running out of ideas and it's one more thing to try.
> >
>
> During some of my testing I did disconnect the Leviton unit in the
> panel, then later reconnected it directly to the panel bus stakes,
> albeit using alligator clip leads.

It was a reach.  (-:

> > The lack of low voltage feeds to the water heater suggests to me that
> > there's a switching power supply capable of running from 240 volts
inside
> > the unit.  They are a known plague to X-10 and could be the source of
the
> > noise that Dan has suggested might be the problem.  If so, it might be
> > possible to filter only the control circuitry inside the unit, but it
> > wouldn't be a very clean fix and it would probably be impossible to get
it
> > inspected with such a jury rigging.
>
> I'm a little surprised by the suggestion that a water heater would
> have a switching power supply in it.  I suppose it's possible -
> although it's not immediately obvious to me why you'd need one.  At
> any rate, I went to GE's site and downloaded their "Use and Care
> Manual", which includes a wiring diagram.  It appears to be a simple
> arrangement of thermostatic and limit switches.

I searched for water heater schematics a few days back and noticed more than
one with a power supply.  I suspect the higher end and tankless models have
more sophisticated electronics that require low voltage power.  It was
another reach.  I remember thinking at some point that when you pull the
control hatch cover, it could easily be empty and have neither transformer
nor switch mode PS!

> > From what I've seen of electric heaters, they can have low water
sensors,
> > overheat sensors and other control circuitry.  If they are generating
noise,
> > and the HCA-10E is amplifying it, that could easily be the source of
your
> > problem.  Short of a Monterey or an oscilloscope, I can't think of any
good
> > ways to test that hypothesis for sure.  What I would expect, if that
were
> > the case, is that you'd see bars at the switch all the time, whether
your
> > script was running or not.
>
> Perhaps the noise is there, but the Leviton doesn't see it/care about
> it, but once an X-10 signal appears, the Leviton comes alive, does its
> repeating/coupling function, and the heater noise piggybacks?  I'm
> reaching here, I know.

No, that's actually very useful information and a reasonable supposition.
If the water heater were spewing noise, why wouldn't the Leviton rebroadcast
it?  It wouldn't if it rejected the constant noise as noise but amplified
it, along with the legit signal, when it "wakes up" to repeat a command.
But if there's no switch power supply, where's the noise coming from?  More
importantly, why doesn't seem to matter if the element is energized or not?
This is a gnarly one.

> > Dan points out that might not be the case as he's seen wall switches
suffer
> > from interference that did not register on the ESM1 so without a scope
or
> > analyzer, it's very hard to say for sure. With that strong a signal, I
now
> > feel it's some bizarre phase effect of the repeater, and not the low
signal
> > that I originally thought.
> >
>
> I also found an ACT CR-234 in my X-10 "extra parts" bin - I may try
> that, too, in place of the Leviton.

Since I own two hinky Leviton devices, I'd swap out the repeater next.  A
repeater straddles both phases and probably is exposed to greater potential
trauma that normal 110VAC devices from non-optimal line conditions like
squirrels eating feeder cables <g> and other mayhem.

> > My advice at the point would be to try one of Jeff Volp's XTB II's and
yank
> > the Leviton.  When I had trouble with mine their tech support rather
rudely
> > said "We only guarantee it to work with other Decora Home Control
devices -
> > not X-10 manufactured equipment" to which I replied "Thank you.  I'll be
> > sure NEVER to buy another piece of Leviton equipment!"  And I haven't.
Both
> > the repeater and the Decora all housecode transmitter are in the same
Ebay
> > "to be sold" box.  Since then I have purchased a number of the XTB I's
and
> > have been deliriously happy with them.  I may even eventually buy the
XTB II
> > as well.
>
> Thanks for that suggestion.

I think the most important distinction between the XTB-II and all other
repeaters is that it turbocharges the X-10 output right at the panel.  That
has profoundly good results at the very end of the circuit branches (like
porchlight runs) where a 5-10V signal can attenuate to a few millivolts.
While that doesn't seem to be your problem here, it's been a plague for me.
Ironically, the Monterey can't read the XTB output directly because it's way
too high.  However, extrapolation of the attenuation of a boosted v.
unboosted Maxicontroller showed a five fold increase in signal.  Something
that read .5V at the load controller unboosted read 2.5V with an XTB.

> >
> > I would report this problem to GE, BTW, just to see what they say.  X-10
and
> > Home Depot are both popular enough that it's likely others have hit this
> > same wall.  If you pull the model number off the unit's ID plate, I'll
even
> > send them a note, saying "I was about to buy this GE water heater when I
> > read
> > about all the troubles this poor guy was having."  I've found "about to
buy"
> > gets much more attention than "I bought."
> >
>
> It'd be interesting to see if they respond - the model is SE50M12AAH.

Thanks for the model number.  I'll see what I can find out about it.

http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/images/t07/0000005/r05226v-1.p
df

One thing I noticed is that it's really a Rheem model.  The diagram, indeed
shows nothing more than what you've noted although it might pay to look
further into the design of the "Type?59T Therm-o-disc Thermostats" to see if
anything weird is going on there.

I fear that we may never figure out why this happened if the ACT swap is
successful.  That's unfortunately just the way it is for really knotty X-10
problems.  There is also the question of why the ACT's in the spare bin to
begin with.  (-:  I know I've sounded mostly like a sales pitch for Monterey
Analyzers and XTB's, but they're the two parts of my X-10 system that are
the most important for reliable operation.  While I'm loathe to admit it,
lest it re-ignite the X-10 flame wars, it's always *something* with X-10.
But the same is true of PC's, home theater, automobiles and complicated life
in general.

--
Bobby G.