Re: No more X10 at Radio Shack?

["Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963@xxxxxxxxx>]

"Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

<stuff snipped>

> My time and satisfaction is worth something.  The time/money wasted on X10
> has no doubt been considerably more than the cost of RadioRA gear.

Other people have different ways of calculating their personal time.  It's
only a guess, but I'll bet there was at least a *little* positive learning
experience with X-10.  After all, you're able to now discriminate between
ultra-reliable HA gear and less reliable stuff.

>> Like I said, I'm not at all worried about recovering the costs.

> Again, a personal decision that's valid for you, but perhaps for me.  In
any
> event, it seems moot.  RA can be yanked upon leaving as easily as X-10,
> or am I mistaken?

> I like how these work, that makes it worth the expense.

Having dealt with mission critical planning, I'll just say that if someone's
life or marriage were depending on it, I'd go for ultra reliable.  Right now
it's more important for me to not overspend on HA since it's not anything
the wife's really interested in.  With the bump in heating and car costs
this year, there will be some questions as to what is a luxury item and
what's not at year's end.

You'll be happy to know that the next project is to design a CCTV and alarm
system that will help prevent my wife's rescued dogs from digging out under
the chain link fence and earning us a $75 ticket.  This has very high SAF
and simple Ratshack remote thermometers have already won a lot of approval
in terms of making sure the dogs are always comfortable.

Although X-10 makes plenty of wireless camera gear, switchers, etc. the
quality of their video stuff was SO abysmal the last times I checked
compared to the slightly more expensive but vastly superior KTC and ProVideo
gear that it's a no brainer.

For me, the interference from microwave ovens, the poor resolution, the
poorer light sensitivity, poor color saturation and poor, often plastic,
optics make them worthless.  I don't even think I would use them for
anything except a rapid deployment situation until I could get wired cameras
in.   While I can tolerate an occasional switch misfire (and that's really
about the worse thing X-10 does) I *cannot* stand poor video quality.
That's my Waterloo.  You have yours and everyone else here has theirs.

> > I also understand that there's a 32/64 device limit, well
> > under the 256 that X-10 offers.
>
> Yeah right, two hundred and fifty six pieces of shit that don't work is
not
> my idea of an advantage.  I dare you to get that many working in a
residence
> anyway.  The signal collisions would make it nearly impossible to use it
> without driving your spouse insane.

That's not true, Bill.  Having that many codes and my new Control-linc Maxis
all housecode consoles (AHC) I can use the extra codes as macro addresses to
queue specific actions, etc.  We only have two motion controlled lights and
they work quite well.  That many codes allows me to set up enumeration
schemas that make sense and are easily mnemonicized.  B for basement, C for
Christmas lights, D for dog kennels, A for attic, G for garage, O for
outside lights, F for fans, H for heaters.  The combo of an XTB and the
Smarthome AHC Maxi-linc have given me incredible flexibility, especially
with built in macros that can span multiple housecodes.  I can now have
commands that turn off whole sections of the house for easy evening
close-downs.

> Yeah, in theory I'd like more device addresses.  In practice, however,
I've
> found I don't need more.  Since I run all my gear through a PC I could
just
> add another RS232 interface and a repeater.  Not as "easy" as X10 but at
> least I'd KNOW they'd work.

Definitely not as easy to do and certainly lots more expensive.  The best
part of the XTB/Control Linc Maxi combo is that it's autonomous.  No PC, no
CM11As.  I can program ten macros of sophisticated nature, issuing "ALL OFF"
commands across multiple housecodes and lots, lots more.  No other protocol
has anywhere NEAR the options and variations of controllers and modules than
X-10 and that's very important to me.

> > More importantly, RF is *always* subject to interference.
>
> Oh that's bullshit.  X10 is even WORSE for being susceptible to
> interference.  I've got all sorts of RF polluting crap here at the house
and
> have NEVER, EVER had an interference problem with RadioRA.  Not once.  And
> I've had plenty of RF issues with things IR-RF remote repeaters (besides
the
> shitty powermid abominations of course).

As I said, it's probably not likely, but who's to say the RF world won't
have changed out from under the RA designers the way the powerline changed
out from under the X-10 designers?  Only time will tell.

> > I suppose you can
> > Faradize your house to keep out EMI from some nearby government
> transmitter
> > but that would be a bitch.
>
> This is a 50's era brick on block construction house in the DC metro area.
> It's ALREADY a faraday cage.  Damn near kills cell phone coverage just by
> walking indoors.  Outside RF is the LEAST of my worries!

I live in the same sort of house not too far away and agree - it take
special care to get RF *into* the house. (-:

> > Easier to filter the powerline as it comes into
> > the house than the entire radio spectrum as it pours through the walls.
>
> Outside interference isn't what plagues most single homes with X10's
crappy
> protocol.  It's the other devices already inside the house that X10 can't
> interoperate with.

And that's where Jeff's XTB shines.  It compensates for the very real
limitation that you have identified.  Without it I would be quite willing,
as you are, to declare X-10 basically unworkable in the modern age.

> > More importantly to me, X-10 is really a dual protocol, using both RF
and
> > PLC.  That gives me a fast fallback position if the local AF base begins
> > transmitting a signal that ends up jamming the RF.  Not likely, but not
> > impossible either.
>
> X10's RF "sucks less" than their powerline crap, I'll give you that.  But
> barring use of someone else's RF transceiver even that's a pain in the ass
> to get working reliably.

The RF protocol allows me to put $5 credit card controllers in a lot of
different places so I never have to get up to turn on a nearby light, etc.
Actually, with the XTB, at least in my Faraday cage from WWII, RF has become
the dicier of the dual protocols.

> > Yes.  It's all crap.  Anyone reading this should box all their X-10
stuff
> up
> > and sell it on Ebay before the bottom falls out completely.  Palmpads,
> > Stickaswitches and their larger AAA powered cousins, appliance modules -
> > sell them now before it's too late.  No reserve price either.  (But drop
> me
> > a line if you do!) (/sarcasm off)
>
> Had I the patience to put up with shipping all the crap I'd sell 'em on
> fleabay.  Meanwhile they're just gathering dust.  I really don't feel like
> inflicting their pain on someone else.

Dude, we must live within a dozen miles of each other.  Box it up and I'll
come by can get it and sign a release than I know the horror I am inflicting
on myself.  If you've got stuff I really need, I'll even write you or your
favorite charity a check for it.

> > It all depends on your "use profile."  Obviously, for a lot of people,
> X-10
> > still does the job.  Thanks to Jeff V. and the XTB, the major problem
I've
> > suffered (weak PLC signal) has disappeared and now I am troubled more by
> the
> > rotten switch feeling of some of the switches.  Would I like something
> > better?  Sure!  But there's the little problem of never being able to
> > justify to my self or my wife any schema that involved a cost of over
$100
> a
> > load.  Or even $50 a load.  Her attitude is that we have HA because *I*
am
> > too lazy to get up and turn off a light.  It's hard to advance that
> position
> > into one where we spend $1,000's on something that we'll never recover
in
> a
> > sale.  For us, something like a granite countertop upgrade would be a
much
> > better long-term investment in so many ways than something like RadioRA.
.
> .
>
> No doubt, the WAF always comes into play.  But for me it's a matter of
> balancing between the wife absolutely DESPISING the crappy X10
switch-feel,
> not to mention the complete lack of reliability, or the one time
> unrecoverable costs.  Buck up, waste the money and avoid the complaints.

We clearly have very different lifestyles and spouses.  My house is almost
completely lit by antique floor and table lamps.  My wife has gotten very
used to the "jiggle the switch" local control - but even more importantly
has learned to control the lamps just via X-10 so that they are always in a
remotely responsive state.  Despite her protestations that HA is for me
only, my logs show me that when I am away, the "ALL LIGHTS ON" command gets
triggered at least once, and often many more times so I know she uses it.

To that end I mount either Stickaswitches or credit card controllers near
the lamp and velcroed out of sight so she can sit at the desk and turn on
the light.  That arrangement tends to negate complaints about the wall
switches.  We hardly ever use the overheads to which most wall switches
connect.  We use all push button switches now, which she likes better than
the older-style paddle.

> > But it's really a case of "to each his own."  Reliability is important
to
> > you.  Not breaking the budget is important to me.  Not putting lots of
> money
> > into a house we'll be selling soon is also important to me.  X-10 lets
me
> do
> > a lot of things for very little money.  Not perfectly, but quite well
> enough
> > to suit my tastes.
>
> I'm always boggled by the number of people that will go to such lengths to
> defend the absolutely shitty performance of the X10 gear.  It JUST DOESN'T
> WORK.  Sure, tweak it endlessly and don't add any new devices and you MAY
be
> able to get it stabilized.  It's not a matter of not being perfect, hell,
> even I'd put up with some degree of issues.  But without having reliable
> 2-way or status tracking it's just impossible to get it all working in a
> manner that doesn't constantly call attention to itself as being a
> clusterfuck.  This is not conducive to garnering spousal respect.

Again, it depends on lifestyles and a lot of other things.  I've had no real
need for status requests.  Nice to have but not required.  My ears are my
status request monitors- I can hear the relays clicking throughout the
house.  (-:

> Of course now with the recent news that Control4 is going to start pimping
> their stuff through BestBuy it might be interesting to see how the price
> points adjust again...

It's going to be an interesting few years, for sure, and my hunch is that
someone's already investing in HA technology that will be as orphaned as
thoroughly as the PC Jr and the microchannel bus users of a decade or so
ago.  The question is, which "superior" HA technology of today will become
tomorrow's Betamax?

--
Bobby G.