Re: X-10 Mister House Motion sensor problems

[Marc F Hult <MFHult@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:48:42 -0400, "Robert Green"
<ROBERT_GREEN1963@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
<BM2dnQrdKs0kBBTZnZ2dnUVZ_qWdnZ2d@xxxxxxx>:

>"Marc F Hult" <MFHult@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message >
><ROBERT_GREEN1963@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>

>> >It's a good time for it, too, because the mini-ITC PCs have proven
>> >themselves to be very capable and reliable.  They'll make better
>> controllers for far less $ than many of the hardwired panels out there.
>>
>> "Far less $ " ??? The mini-itx that Homeseer sells with its software
>> installed -- only through distributors that will provide support -- costs
>> about ~2700. This is all about the cost of support, and next to nothing
>> about the cost of hardware which you seem to assume.
>
>I said, precisely: "They'll (mini-ITX's) make better controllers for far
>less $ than many of the hardwired panels out there."
>
>That's straight up and simple.  In my case, and that of many other HA
>enthusiasts, we already have the PC HW and SW smarts so we can assume the
>cost of support is negligible.  I would NEVER give HS $2700 for a $200
>mini-ITX ($100 used from Ebay) that I could (and did) assemble myself.  Nor
>would I use HomeSeer until I got the sense that their plug-in problems have
>been solved.  I've seen far too many complaints that plug-ins don't work as
>advertised and getting plug-in support is way too difficult.
>
>However, I do agree with their choice of a Mini-ITX as perhaps the perfect
>home automation controller, which supports my contention that PC based HA,
>specifically in the mini-ITX format, will eventually outperform hardwired
>panels.  Even Homeseer agrees.   Get it?  :-)

Not in the Either-OR way that you, as "rah rah" advocate fer sumthin or
'nother,  imply.

HomeSeer (and Charmed Quark, and others) _also_ support Elk M1G (and Omni
and others). So no. So Homeseer does not 'agree' with you.

I write this as someone who owns Homeseer and Charmed Quark  and Elk M1G.
Do you use any of these, or is this another pet hippopotamus of yours?

>> Also, if one steps away from the hypothetical to the actual, reality is
>> that hardwired panels provide secure, systematic hardware I/O connections
>> and connectors in an appropriate enclosure. This is critical. If you look
>> at (eg) the $2700 Mini-Itx Homeseer sells for their software, it has none
>> of those needed features. It connects to other pc-centric hardware, not
>> home wiring.
>
>Let's get back on track with what I actually said first.  The mini-ITX *I*
>am talking about costs about $200 for the most elemental version.  You can
>mount it, just like an automation controller in a big box, if you like, or
>in a case.  You can connect any number of I/O ports, ethernet devices, USB
>devices, to that motherboard very nicely with breakout cables and serial
>>and USB I/O adapters.

Hippopotomus check: What MS-based, 12vdc-supply, mini-ITX costs $200
including OS and power supply? I am fairly knowledgeable and do not know of
any.

There are at this moment 100 (one hundred)  Elk M1G's with enclosures and DC
power supply and built-in battery charger for the backup battery available
on Buy-it-Now from an Elk dealer on eBay for $389.99 each.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ELK-M1G-Base-Unit_W0QQitemZ9710460784QQcategoryZ50584QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem.

That's roughly the price of HomeSeer + XP (sans hardware.)

I bought one last year. Arrived lickety-split jist as promised (may not have
been this same vendor).

In equivalent/comparable terms for a PC, that's CPU, I/O, enclosure, power
supply, UPS (less battery) *Operating system*, and *complete application*
(most everything less kybd, mouse and monitor).

>In fact, you can build a far more easily maintainable system with a much
>higher degree of "swappability" using COTS parts like the ITX than you ever
>can with a proprietary panel.

I disagree quite completely based on experience with pc's in general and Elk
and three mini-ITX's in particular. To use a joke from the Profumo scandal
days "one screw out of place and the whole cabinet falls apart". PC
configurations are fragile.

>And, in my case, a spare ITX machine can be used as a regular PC until it's
>needed.  An Omni motherboard can't anything else except be an Omni
>motherboard.

Which is absolutely all it ever needs to be.

>You can keep a TWO spare ITX's MB's (at $100 each) on hand for a fraction
>of what a spare Omni or Elk spare motherboard would cost.

Do you have a spare engine for your car too? ( I _used_ to ;-)

>Remember, the ITX memory and CPU are socketed and easily repaired and
upgraded in the field.

Hippo Alert: The mini ITX was invented by VIA and ABIK, no VIA Mini-ITX has
ever had a replaceable CPU. Current units by other manufacturers that I know
of that do have replaceable cpu's are not nearly so low-powered and so not
nearly so useful.

>Not so with your hardwired panels.

Not so with VIA mini-ITX. What do you mean by "_my_ hardwired panels'?  I
have never used an Omni.

Have you ever seen the insides of an Elk M1G ? (FWIW, the 'cpu and memory'
in an Elk MM443 _are_ socketed and that of the M1G are not although the
voice processor is.)

>The ITX machines have many more users
>testing the system to the limits and have been revised far more often than
>any proprietary boards to fix small annoyances.

But there are so many more "small annoyances" to fix! And many, many, many
more (infinite?)  configurations to test. And I dunno what you mean by
"revised far more often". They typically are not revised at all except for
BIOS. They are typically replaced by a _different_ model that ain't
necessarily plug-n-play replaceable with predecessors --and typically isn't.

>There are innumerable adapters to connect PC's to relays and real world
>devices.

And we woulda been jist fine if weda stuck with the 8055 PIO that the 8088
PC bus inherited from the Z80 in my opinion based on 22 years of adding
relays and real world devices to PC's. Complexity doesn't help here.

>It's just not the problem you're making it out to be.

What problem ? Please read what I wrote. Neat devices but not panacea. Been
there; Stayed there; Doing that.  Not as inexpensive as you make out. Still
need enclosure etc. Experience vs hippopotamuses. MS OS not free.
Applications not free.

>If it were,
>why would HomeSeer choose the mini-ITX as the platform of their choice?

What *are* you talking about? They chose a particular Mini-ITX (I presume
without having looked inside)  because it met their design criteria.

>If you're concerned about it not being in the appropriate enclosure, then
>you've got 1,000's to choose from.  It's the size of laptop PC.  How hard
>is it going to be to enclose?  Really.

Optimizing  budget, space, (width, depth, height and volume) and
functionality is not always straight forward. I made/adapted a 1U rack mount
enclosure  for a VIA Mini-ITX (with  National Instruments PCMCIA 24-bit AD
converter, video input (which uses only the PCI slot available in a 1U
Mini-ITX) that includes DC-DC converter for the board and peripherals,
batteries for back up, router/switch/wireless with external cabled antenna,
built-in ElkMM443 for PC and Inet watch dog,  CAT5-to-fiber converter, BX24
homebrew workhorse I/O and more. Idea is to have a self-contained unit that
optically isolated except for power, which is galvanically isolated through
an external transformer.  !%&# thing is too deep to fit the way I wanted on
the  rack ...

Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.econtrol.org