Re: What can I replace this latching relay system with?

[Marc_F_Hult <MFHult@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On 31 Jul 2006 11:14:15 -0700, "Steve Wechsler" <swechsler@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote in message  <1154369655.615774.19350@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:

>Marc_F_Hult wrote:
>
>> I set up a test jig with two INSTEON light switches (didn't have dimmers
>> available handily available but this is a test of INSTEON communication,
>> not output mode) interconnected using ) two UL-listed Class 2, 24volt,
>> 20VA "doorbell"
>> transformers  and four 0.22 ufd 250VAC capacitors removed as part of the
>> modification of 15amp, X10 PRO filters.
>>
>> The connection worked without error using both ~200 feet CAT5 and
~200feet
>> 22 awg round (untwisted) telephone wire.
>>
>> I'll post some pictures and a schematic later to
>> www.ECOntrol.org/INSTEON0verCAT5.htm )
>
>(not up yet)
>
>Marc, this is a good idea, but unfortunately I don't think I can use
>it:
>
>1. The switches are not installed in electric boxes, just frames
>generally used for low voltage wiring. While this is not
>insurmountable, more serious is that:
>2. Doorbell transformers are way too large to fit in a single wall (or
>ceiling) box.

Not actually a problem. These transformers are designed to mount _outside_
the junction box in the wall cavity with the AC leads inside the box and the
low voltage outside. They take up virtually no room inside the box.

>I also have one other concern; namely: is there any mechanism in place
>preventing high current from being sent over the low voltage wires (if
>a short should develop in the switch) and causing it to act like a
>heating coil? I'm not an electronics wiz by any stretch of the
>imagination, so forgive me if this is me just showing my ignorance.

See my second post  to the other thread (INSTEON over CAT5; was etc)

The National Electrical Code is your friend. This legitimate concern is part
and parcel of what selecting a Class-2, current-limited, UL-listed
transformer does for you. If you have (as suspect) 18 gauge or larger wire
installed for the low voltage, shorting the transformer for too long may
burn it out, but the purpose of the code is to protect against fires and
electrocution and it does that very well.

>Someone else also suggested going back to the rotary controllers and
>making all the connections there. Unfortunately, this won't work
>either: I did some testing yesterday, and it appears that most lights
>are NOT connected to these controllers (in fact, the only device that I
>know for a fact is connected to that controller is our house fan, which
>I'm planning to remove anyway)
>
>So let me state a new question: is there any wireless system that
>provides a small inline switching module combined with a wireless
>single or dual switch? So far, all I'm seeing is these:
>
>X10 Pro:
>
>http://www.activehomepro.com/accessories/pro/xpdf_wa1_s.html

1) Not suitable for permanent, only control of lighting. And 2) you have no
good way of controlling it that does not depend on the X-10 protocol over
the powerlines *AND* X-10 wireless protocol. People tolerate the many
limitations/defects of X-10, because in general, one can resort to
_manually_ turning lights on and off even if signal propagation over the X10
protocol fails. But going X10 switchless using the inline, AND wireless and
would mean that you would be completely dependent on two problematic
protocols _in series_ which no knowledgeable and responsible person is
likely to recommend (IMO).
>
>Insteon:
>
>http://www.smarthome.com/2475d.html

Has no wireless switch capability at present.

>Neither system, however, appears to sell a single stick-anywhere
>switch. The X10 4-way would work in a pinch, I suppose, especially
>since one of the four is a dimmer and the other two could be programmed
>as macros...

A disaster waiting (not very long) to happen. See above.

We still don't know what your budget is. From your hints, it seems pointless
to discuss Zigbee, Zwave or anything other wireless because they all seem
beyond your budget.

My suggestion would be to try the INSTEON dimming option at one or two
locations where dimming would be most appreciated, and move the existing
relay parts from them to the locations where the relays are
problematic/worn-out.

That will cost about $65 per location (less labor) including a new switch
box (yes ;-), two INSTEON ICON dimmers, two small transformers and four
capacitors. See how that suits you in a couple of locations and take it from
there incrementally. Makes sense to wait until INSTEON settles some of its
early bugs in any case (but none that I am aware of should significantly
affect the small installation described here).

There are less expensive analog control dimmers that I have used and like,
but they are Vellemann (google this newsgroup and web) kits from Belgium and
do not have UL-or any other US approvals as best I know. Also, they use
unsealed/unprotected printed circuit board construction in contrast to the
fully potted Solid State Relay Crydom power controllers that I recommended
and that you found too expensive.

HTH ... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org