Re: XTB, reliablity, etc.

["Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963@xxxxxxxxx>]

<craft.brian@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1165800725.427029.282670@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Robert Green wrote:
>
> > Maybe one switch.  How about 16?  What if you've got a bad situation
like a
> > very old house with some totally inaccessible spaces?  I'd say X-10 does
a
> > pretty good job if the installer understands its real world operating
> > parameters.  Oh, and since X-10 *can* be made reliable without hiring an
> > electrician, usually within the constraints of the UL and NEC, it trumps
> > pulling that old 12/2 romex any day.  There's usually no one who would
> > consider pulling a new hardwire 3 way switch as easy as an X-10 based
> > solution except an electrician or a *very* seasoned DIY'er.
>
> That is utterly false.

Careful with that word "utterly"  (carried to the utmost point or highest
degree : ABSOLUTE, TOTAL <utter darkness>) as it leaves little room for
error in your assessment of certainty.  I can get nearly ANYONE going with 3
way switch (where there was none before) using X-10 faster than any human
electrician you know can run a new run of Romex through the wall.  (I say
'nearly' because experience tells me there are always exceptions and almost
'nothing' is utterly 'anything.')

> People able to do their own residential wiring
> easily out-number those able to troubleshoot x10 by several orders of
> magnitude.

My specific example was a 3 way switch.  Given that I've seen experienced
electricians muck them up, I specifically chose that as a "separating the
men from the boys" example.  Are you claiming that anyone who could
comfortably get a 3-way switch pulled from scratch could NOT also easily
learn how to debug X-10?

If *I* could learn to debug X-10 AND teach my wife how to do it, you could,
too, and so can a multitude of others.  It's bothersome that it's necessary
to buy meters and XTB's, but X-10's designers apparently had crystal balls
only good for twenty years.

Electricians need tools;  so do X-10 installers.  That's pretty simple but
it's something that seems to have vanished from your equation.  Are you
going to gnaw through the plaster and lathe or wallboard or do you intend to
buy a drill?  Are you going to strip the wire with your teeth or buy a
stripper?  What about a voltmeter, wire nuts, wire, cutters, fox and hound
toners, snakes, special long drill bits, fish tapes and plaster and paint
tools?

And what about a permit?  I don't need one for X-10.

To debug X-10 you need to buy a simple bar graph meter and learn how to use
it.  What's the big deal?  I'm sorry, Brian, but I just don't see what all
the fuss is about.

> Residential wiring is among the most common of DIY projects.

Just because it's common doesn't mean it's done competently.  It's probably
the home repair done the least competently and codeworthy, except perhaps
for plumbing (based on old houses I've seen, at least).

There's a bigger issue here, though.  You're making what I believe is a very
serious comparison error. You're trying to equate an entire house automated
by X-10 (and the attendant problems) to pulling a single, new switch.  They
are in no way equivalent.  A fairer comparison would be something like an
X-10'ed house being likened to a DIY electrician installing a Centralite
system from scratch.  (As I understand it, high-end HA manufacturers tend to
discourage that practice since they're all too familiar with the range of
experience of DIY electricians.  They obviously prefer that their systems be
installed by company-trained and company-certified installers.)

Yes, there are plenty of amateurs that can "pull a good single pole switch"
but I have repeatedly found for many that their competence declines rapidly
as the task increases in complexity.  I've seen wire snaking (especially by
DIY'ers but by pros as well) result in some pretty serious issues like walls
crumbing and other cables being cut through inadvertently.  I knew a guy who
disturbed a hornet's nest while fishing wire in the attic and ended up
hospitalized.  We've had multiple reports here of people tying neutral to
grounds in horribly unacceptable ways.  DIY wiring is FAR more risky and
time-consuming than X-10 could EVER be.

> Bookshops, hardware stores, and libraries everywhere carry extensive
> documentation on the subject.

I just unwired a rat's nest Mongolian Cluster F*** in the basement done by
just the sort of person dangerous enough to know how to connect two wires
with a wire nut, but not what they mean.  It's a lot harder to kill someone
accidentally by X-10 module misconnection than by doing your own, (probably)
un-inspected 110 or 220VAC wiring.  We've seen *so* many cases of people
writing messages here indicating they are DIY'ing their own wiring that also
reveal they don't know the difference between neutral and ground.  Or what a
traveler is.  Or why some white wires are marked with black or red tape.  Or
why the middle dimmer in a bank of three keeps burning out.  It's shocking,
really.  Electrocution is a significant cause of death in this country.
Here are your lifetime odds of dying from:

Fire or Smoke   1-in-1,116

Natural Forces (heat, cold, storms, quakes, etc.)   1-in-3,357

Electrocution*   1-in-5,000

Drowning   1-in-8,942


(Gotta wonder if DIY electricians that don't know HOT from NEUTRAL are among
those killed each year?  There have been some who've posted here that we've
never heard from again! I'll bet if we had any electrical inspectors here
they could tell us tales of things they've found cobbled together by DIY'ers
that would make our collective hair stand on end!)

> I could find a dozen people to install a switch within walking distance of
my house.

Licensed electricians?  According to my electrical code, only the homeowner
can do wiring work without a license.  Are inspections included?  Drywall
repair included?  Insurance in case they drill through a gas line snaking
that wire?  Insurance in case they reverse your hot and neutral and your kid
dies fishing a PopTart out of the toaster?  You're not being very realistic
in your comparisons.

Sure, lots of people do their own wiring, but unless they've spent the time
learning the trade and the NEC, odds are you are getting substandard and
possible lethal workmanship.  And, if by chance you are talking about a
licensed electrician among the dozen, what would they charge you to add a
light switch compared to the cost of an X-10 light switch or lamp module and
controller?  Are you certain you're willing to compare the quality of a job
done by an electrician who's wired 10K homes to that of a DIY'er doing his
first wiring job with the help of an illustrated book?

A while back, I helped someone in a bad domestic situation install four X-10
lamp modules, a mini controller and an automatic timer for under $50.  No
other HA manufacturer, no DIY electrician, in fact NO ONE I know of can
touch that price point for an eight load timer/controller, a manual
controller and four load controllers.  Very few can touch the time it took
to install and program - less than twenty minutes.

More importantly, she loves it and understands how to use it. She can turn
on lots of lights if she hears a noise from the controller by her bedside.
She also doesn't have to deal with four separate plug-in timers (which she
had been using) that get out of synch with every power failure. The X-10
unit has a battery backup.   X-10 also makes it a lot easier to use those
timed lamps without disturbing their timer settings, either.  Before, she
had to fiddle with the timer on the floor at the outlet to turn on a local
lamp.  Now, she just flicks the table or floor lamp switch twice to activate
local control.

>  Odds are I couldn't find one who would know how to troubleshoot x10, or
for
> that matter, who would have even heard of it.

So, what's your point?  If you don't like X-10, no one's forcing you to use
it.  If you need troubleshooting advice, you've found the one place that is
virtually guaranteed to help you solve your problem.  If you need to just
bitch about it for reasons unknown, then I would suggest acquiring a life
from Ebay.  Just kidding.  But really, I'd prefer to spend my time helping
people debug their X-10 problems rather than write polemics about the
problems and permutations of the protocol.   There are plenty of people
using X-10 that wouldn't dream of poking around inside their circuit panel.
Their choices are not quite as flexible as you might have us believe.

If you're trying to convince me that:

1) folks living in other than traditional stick-built homes or
2) those with bad access to ceilings or
3) people living in rental properties or
4) people without the skill, the drill, extended drill bits, fish tape,
plaster repair and painting tools are better served by buying a Sawzall and
letting her rip than putting a little time and $ into solving X-10 problems,
you've got a few more light years to go.

I've installed a number of kits of lamp modules and mini-timers in large
tract houses and they worked just fine.  There's no automatic light timer
for multiple lights that's as simple and cheap.  I always take my meter
along when I do installs, but then again, I would hope any electrician worth
his salt brought his tools when he installed equipment.  There are plenty of
situations where I would use X-10 and the four listed above are but a
fraction.  Nothing else in the world comes close in price.  Nothing.  I
haven't priced either lately, but I'll bet I can get an X-10 module (and
probably a controller, too)for less than just the Romex to run your manual
switch wire.  Such is the benefit of mass production and economies of scale.

> I'm curious how you install a whole-house filter without employing an
> electrician, or being comfortable doing your own residential wiring.

I've never met anyone in person who's ever needed one but yes, you might
need an electrician to handle that special case.  Usually, you can just
avoid using your neighbor's housecodes.  That's why they provided 16 of them
and 16 unit codes.  My X-10 installation has required neither a whole house
filter or a repeater.  I had to be creative to accomplish the latter, but
it's enjoyable hobby activity for me.  It's obviously not for everyone.  A
more important note is that X-10's transmission medium CAN be filtered.
What happens when you get RF interference on your RF-based HA system?  Do
you put copper siding up and screen your windows with copper mesh?  You
won't need an electrician - you'll need an inheritance from a rich uncle to
pull that off.

> Pulling wire for a switch takes an afternoon.

Plugging in an X-10 module takes 10 seconds.  Debugging, ten minutes more.

> Debugging x10, including
> measuring the signal attenuation of every device in the house, ordering
> and installing filters where necessary, installing  phase couplers,
> signal boosters or repeaters, researching device compatibility (to
> avoid lock-ups, repeated dim commands, collisions, and assorted other
> problems), and then installing the actual devices, takes at least days,
> probably weeks.

Weeks?  Aw, c'mon, dude, I'm afraid that summation is *nearly* (what was the
phrase you used?) "utterly false!"  You buy a meter, some filters, take a
few signal readings *if* you're having problems, install a some filters and
in most cases, that's it.  You're attempting to make it sound as if you need
a Ph.D., two graduate assistants, a research librarian, access to Caltech
lab equipment *and* an NSF grant just to get an X-10 lamp to light.  That's
not true.

You simply need an X-10 meter to debug nearly every common X-10 problem.

If you want to get fancy, you can buy an analyzer.  I did.  And I learned to
use it in one night.  The instructions were a horrifying <g>  8 pages
long!!!  One reason why things might seem so complicated is that people futz
around so long trying to solve serious problems without one.  It's painful
to watch.  It's like trying to tell if you have a fever without a
thermometer.  We had a secretary like that - she'd offer her forehead up to
everyone in range so they could see "if she felt warm" because she always
thought she was running a fever.  We chipped in and bought her one of those
fancy instant ear thermometers for her birthday.  She still didn't stop
asking for forehead checks, though.

Some technologies require tools.  X-10 requires at LEAST a meter (and if
you've got an unusual situation or support more than one site, an analyzer).
I factor that cost into the overall cost of ownership.  Add in the XTBs and
it's *still* cheaper and more convenient than any other solution I've seen
on the market, at least for my very personal home automation needs.  It may
not be as good a fit for others, I'll admit, but for me, and a number of
others, a little work and $ protects a large and growing investment in X-10
HA gear.

> And, the jobs is never really finished since at any moment someone can
plug in a
> device that will suck the signal and cause it to fail.

As for the Mongol hordes beating down my door to force their nefarious
signal sucking electric horse mane curlers, Urtuu-Pods and khuushuur crock
pots into my defenseless electrical outlets, that problem was easy to fix.
I made sure the outlet where a guest was likely to plug in a power shaver or
alarm clock was filtered.  I did the same in my PC lab where someone's
likely to plug in a "foreign" laptop, UPS or PC.

Now that I have Jeff Volp's XTB's I haven't bothered to X-10 bench test new
gear - I get signal levels in the 1, 2 and 3 volt ranges now, and I assume
that's what X-10 signals used to be 20 years ago (I neither needed nor owned
a meter back then).  Previously I'd only have a fractional signal.   Back
then, every new purchase got tested on the meter.

Believe me, I would rather bench test a wall wart for two minutes than fish
wires through a dust choked ceiling, crawl around on attic rafters stuffed
with fiberglass and have plaster dust get in my mouth, eyes, ears and nose.
Since I barcode and inventory new equipment anyway, it was no big thing for
me.

Making X-10 effective wasn't rocket science and it was a lot easier than
learning the NEC, which is something far more complex than troubleshooting
X-10, despite protestations to the contrary.  Just because pulling wire
*looks* easy doesn't mean it is.  The devil is always in the details.

A competent electrician wouldn't troubleshoot household wiring without a
voltmeter.  Neither would a competent X-10 user or installer troubleshoot an
X-10 installation without an X-10 signal meter.  That's pretty
straightforward in my book.  In a world where I am expected to upgrade my
PC's OS every three years, spending a little money and brainpower to extend
X-10's twenty-plus year service life another five or ten years seems like a
no-brainer to me.  YMMV, though.

--
Bobby G.