Re: What can I replace this latching relay system with?

["Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963@xxxxxxxxx>]

"Steve Wechsler" <swechsler@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1154369655.615774.19350@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Marc_F_Hult wrote:
>
> > I set up a test jig with two INSTEON light switches (didn't have dimmers
> > available handily available but this is a test of INSTEON communication,
> > not output mode) interconnected using ) two UL-listed Class 2, 24volt,
> > 20VA "doorbell"
> > transformers  and four 0.22 ufd 250VAC capacitors removed as part of the
> > modification of 15amp, X10 PRO filters.
> >
> > The connection worked without error using both ~200 feet CAT5 and
~200feet
> > 22 awg round (untwisted) telephone wire.
> >
> > I'll post some pictures and a schematic later to
> > www.ECOntrol.org/INSTEON0verCAT5.htm )
>
> (not up yet)
>
> Marc, this is a good idea, but unfortunately I don't think I can use
> it:
>
> 1. The switches are not installed in electric boxes, just frames
> generally used for low voltage wiring. While this is not
> insurmountable, more serious is that:
> 2. Doorbell transformers are way too large to fit in a single wall (or
> ceiling) box.

I don't know where you live, Steve, but the inspectors I'm familiar with
would have a canary if you:

a) stripped out the existing low voltage controls for your (AFAIK) already
inspected and approved GE lighting system and then:

b) replaced them with an assortment of electronic switches designed and
labeled to operate at 110VAC but modified by you to operate at 20 to 24VAC,
and then:

c) connected these switches to doorbell transformers as well as adding:

d) four 0.22 ufd 250VAC capacitors via the existing, apparently
undocumented, GE low voltage multiconductor cabling.

My feelings about how the inspector would react is just a hunch, though,
even though it's based on things like inspectors failing an installation
just because the plug-in transformers don't say Class 2.  He might not just
have a canary, he might give birth to a whole cow!

Perhaps if an inspector has previous experience with your house and great
faith in your skills, he will permit you to install the above equipment.
Maybe.  Of course, if the inspector thinks you're a PITA, he might approve
your novel wiring scheme on the basis that some serious electrical shocks
might cause a personality improvement!  (-:

> I also have one other concern; namely: is there any mechanism in place
> preventing high current from being sent over the low voltage wires (if
> a short should develop in the switch) and causing it to act like a
> heating coil? I'm not an electronics wiz by any stretch of the
> imagination, so forgive me if this is me just showing my ignorance.

It's a legitimate question and one the inspector's bound to concern himself
with.  The National Electrical Code (NEC) abounds with rules concerning the
proper isolation of low voltage control wires from the 110 or 220VAC devices
they control.  The issues in these cases are preventing electric shock as
well as keeping undersized (and perhaps unfused) low voltage wires from
carrying high voltage and starting a fire.

Connecting a device designed and labeled to operate on 110VAC as a low
voltage device would make an inspector very unhappy.  Even IF you explained
you had wired it so the just the low voltage functions of the switch were in
operation.  He would be especially reluctant to approve that "off label" use
if he got that idea that the switches you installed had already been found
to be defective.  As you know, Smarthome has admitted to issues with those
Insteon switches and is modifying them before selling any more.  Bearing
that "quiet recall" in mind, he's even LESS likely to permit the use of such
switches in a way substantially different than the manufacturer recommends.

> Someone else also suggested going back to the rotary controllers and
> making all the connections there.

That was me.   I suggested splicing a connector out of the existing wiring
harness going to the master switch as a means to interface with the house
wiring from one place (and, restore it easily to its "premodification
status").

> Unfortunately, this won't work  either: I did some testing
> yesterday, and it appears that most lights are NOT connected
> to these controllers (in fact, the only device that I
> know for a fact is connected to that controller is our house fan,
> which  I'm planning to remove anyway)

Well, that sucks.  It's hard to believe that they're not connected to
anything except the house fan.  I wonder whether it was always that way or
whether a previous owner already performed some wiring surgery?  I've
cross-posted this to AHR as well as CHA because AHR has a much greater
readership.  Alt.Home.Repair also has a lot of electricians and very savvy
DIY's.  They may have already figured out a way of upgrading the old GE LV
system that's in your house.

I really don't see any way of maintaining intellectual control over the
upgrade without spending some serious time with a fox and hound tracing set
and a multimeter.  My experience in large cities and metro suburbs has been
that the inspector is not going to approve a rewiring job if he has reason
to believe you don't understand the existing wiring that you're modifying.

Yours, unfortunately, is not just a simple case of replacing existing
switches or fixtures.  Those types of upgrades often don't even require a
permit in most jurisdictions, if done by the homeowner. However, that's not
you. You're contemplating a fundamental change in the wiring of your house.
The inspector will be very much on the lookout for modifications that have
the potential to shock or cause fires - and the running of 110VAC through
small gauge, low voltage wiring, even accidentally, is just asking for a
fire in the walls.

If you search Google for "electrical inspection requirements" among other
terms, you'll find that the more complex the rewiring and the less
traditional your replacement solution, the more inspectors will demand of
you in terms of wiring diagrams and demonstrations of proficiency in things
electrical.

Out in the boonies where the chance of an electrical fire burning down your
neighbor's house is small, they may look the other way and cheerfully let
you immolate yourself.  The risks rise as buildings get closer and closer to
each other.  Places like NYC and Chicago have *incredibly* stringent
electrical rules (way above what the NEC requires) because urban fires can
spread so quickly.  In NYC, for example, you must use armored cable, not
Romex.  The requirements become even more stringent in multifamily and
attached dwellings.

In most jurisdictions, the inspectors have final say.  If you don't like it,
you don't get approved.  If they don't believe you're skilled enough to do
what you propose or that your proposal is flawed, you won't get approved.
That's why I'm encouraging you to select a replacement that uses approved
components in an approved way (although it's something you already seem to
know well!).   You don't want the inspector to condemn your house while
you're still living there!

> So let me state a new question: is there any wireless system that
> provides a small inline switching module combined with a wireless
> single or dual switch? So far, all I'm seeing is these:
>
> X10 Pro:
>
> http://www.activehomepro.com/accessories/pro/xpdf_wa1_s.html
>
> Insteon:
>
> http://www.smarthome.com/2475d.html
>
> Neither system, however, appears to sell a single stick-anywhere
> switch. The X10 4-way would work in a pinch, I suppose, especially
> since one of the four is a dimmer and the other two could be programmed
> as macros...

I believe that once you get used to the four position switches, you'll not
want to go back, especially if you program them in "walking order" so that
you can turn off the lights behind you and turn on the lights ahead of you
from the same switch.  As you've already noted, you can also use the extra
buttons for macros and my hunch is that they will become far more useful
than you realize.

Does your breaker box look like a typical unit?  Are there circuit breakers
that represent areas of the house or is there a breaker or output for each
separate load?

--
Bobby G.