Re: Newbie Advice needed

["Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963@xxxxxxxxx>]

Elliot" <Elliot@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

> Geesh!!  Give this guy a break!  At our counter we get a lot of
> DIY'ers mixed in with the pros.  Generally speaking, the smart DIY'ers
> who ask the right questions and study what they are doing are fully up
> to the job.

So you inspect their work when they are finished and you're fully aware of
the quality of the work they did? I assume you're a master electrician so
you can evaluate their workmanship and know (telepathically?) how much they
know about electricity.   People die from futzing with their own wiring.
That's why we have lots and lots of laws and regulations about who can do
what to electrical systems.  It's because so many people have died from
electrical accidents and so many people continue to be electrocuted
accidentally.

> I would say these types are probably going to do a better
> job than half the pros I see.

This statement seems to imply that you're actively inspected enough of these
jobs to come up with an valid assessment of the work performed.  I don't
want to impugn your integrity, but I have a hard time accepting that because
electrical inspection is a full time job done by highly trained
professionals.  You'd hardly be in a position to do that for free.

The statement also implies a pretty strong anti-electrician agenda.   I've
seen plenty of DIY work and it was a miracle no one got killed from it.  We
have at least one post a month, maybe more, from people asking if they can
just use a ground instead a neutral because the switch seems to work OK that
way, even though there's no neutral in the box. Jeez!

> I got into this thread late, but I went back and reviewed it.  From
> the responses, I expected he had wanted to do something like run 240V
> to every doorknob to greet visitors.  I think we have a problem of the
> professionals not wanting any homeowner to ever touch the wires in
> their house with overblown concerns of safety.

No, it sounds more like you have an anti-electrician bias.  I don't think
*anyone* who has expressed reservations about the OP's skills are
electricians.  I'm pretty sure we are all DIYer's.  I am also sure our
motives are not financial.  We are all concerned the OP might kill a kid or
two at a pool party if he didn't wire the pool lights with a GFCI and proper
materials.

We're pretty good here in CHA at figuring out who could be *designing* AC
power plants and who should call a licensed pro, just by the kinds of
questions they ask.   We're not doing it to make the OP feel bad or to steer
work to electricians.  Some have suggested books, I suggested he hire an
electrician and have him inspect the outdoor lights and wire the coupler.
Most posters have worded their comments carefully so as to be cautionary and
educational, not insulting.

> Where do you draw the
> line: Can he replace a lightbulb without your paid help?

You've made serious mistake, Elliot. *My* paid help?  I am not an
electrician.  Maybe that's why you're getting so roiled. You seem to have an
issue with electricians.

Since you're operating under a mistaken assumption, let's review some
basics.  Surely you can tell the difference between:

A) an act that's clearly meant to be done by end users (plugging and
unplugging appliances and replacing light bulbs)

B) wiring a device across the 240VAC mains and not knowing where to install
it (and perhaps how to) or whether the subpanels are electrically
interconnected?

Choice "B" should (and did) set off warning bells.  Lots of people *can* and
*do* wire couplers in correctly.  We have people in this group like Dave
Houston and Dr. Cheung who could design the power plants that provide AC
current as well explain the subtle nuances of split-phase AC circuits and
how to calculate power factors.  I would not presume to caution these folks,
or any number of posters here who have demonstrated, repeatedly, very good
familiarity with AC wiring and safe wiring practices.  I have some idea from
what they have written and other clues what they know about electrical
wiring.  I don't know *anything* about the OP so I tend to err on the side
of caution, which you seem to feel are "overblown safety concerns."

> Can he replace a switch which is all most X10 homeowners
> want to do?

Maybe, and maybe not.  How is the switch wired currently?  There's no
telling that some amateur didn't bungle it before he even got there.  I've
seen screwup jobs where wires from two different circuit breakers were run
together into one box.  An electrician or a smart DIYer would know how to
check for cross-circuit wiring and have the proper tools to do it.

But throw your average amateur at a 3 or 4 way switch and a good time is
guaranteed for everyone.  Surprisingly, I agree with you up to a point,
Elliot.  Working on a 110VAC switch with an insulated toggle is a lot less
dangerous than working inside the master breaker panel with the cover off.

A typical breaker box is capable of delivering more than 100 amps of current
at 240VAC.  You can burn right through steel with far less juice than that.
Working at the panel is a way different situation than replacing a wall
switch.  Switch swapping usually requires just a some screwdriving and wire
nut twisting/untwisting.  Still, I'm dubious about *some* homeowners even
working with wall switches because they don't know enough about wiring to
handle anything but the simplest switch swap-out.

Working with switches is something a smart DIYer can handle, and it's not
likely they'll kill anyone besides themselves if they screw up.  That's just
simple Darwinism at work.  But that's NOT what this thread is about.  It's
about 240VAC couplers in multi-panel systems and DIY-installed poolside
lighting.  Those operations require a just a *bit* (heavy sarcasm here) more
knowledge than a simple switch swap.  More importantly, they involve much
greater risk of electrocution to the installer and to the occupants of the
house.

> Let's be helpful to the people who are trying to do it right and not
> bring our hidden agendas into the discussion.

"Our hidden agendas?"  It funny you should say that.  Why is it when someone
accuses someone of *else* having a "hidden agenda" it's usually the accuser
that's hiding something?  In this case, you apparently took hold of the
mistaken idea that I was an electrician trying to force people to hire
electricians to "change light bulbs." I advocated no such thing.  In
reality, I suspect the agenda here is that you sell to the DIY trade (your
email addy of Elliot@xxxxxxxxxxxx provided that clue).  That would give you
an agenda of not wanting to see your income cut by people hiring
electricians and not buying material from you.  But that's just a guess. :-)
For all I know the "e" could stand for anything from encyclopedias to
ecstasy.

In *this* specific thread, the OP talked about not having electrocuted
anyone *yet* with the pool lights he put in.  Based on some questions he
asked, I think the best "break" I could give him would be to have him
consider asking a professional to install the coupler and check his previous
work.

Outside electricity is about the most dangerous kind.  Kids have been killed
from faulty outside lights because water often enters them and causes
serious current leaks.  Does the OP know how to check for small current
leaks that could indicate larger problems?  Is he certain that if his kids
give a pool party that someone running an extension cord outside to power a
boom box or something like it won't bring two legs of a mis-wired circuit
together with deadly results?

I don't think I am being too hard on the OP.  I'm just trying to make sure
that he doesn't kill himself or someone else by messing with things he
clearly needs to learn a lot more about.  Everyone's got to start somewhere.
It's not a crime to be a beginner.  But it's dangerous to be overconfident
because mis-wired fixtures often work, but they are extremely dangerous.

 I was shocked to learn (pardon the pun) how little AC current it takes to
kill someone.  We always see the prison lights dim during movie
electrocutions, but the just the right jolt of even fairly low-current
110VAC going through your heart can stop it and you quite dead.

--
Bobby G.