Re: Caddx NX-8E - RS232 ASCII Codes

["Robert L Bass" <robertlbass@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

> Alarm makers are trying to protect their assets.

That and their relationship with installing dealers.  That has nothing to do
with liability or security -- just profits.

> Is there some reason they are not entitled to try
> to protect the integrity of their intellectual
> property?

They're free to do so all they like.  Just don't pretend it has anything to
do with prtoecting clients' security or terrorism.

> Or is their some reason you *have* to buy from
> a manufacturer who refuses to cross-license their
> IP to you for nothing in return?

I don't recall asking anyone to do that.  However, companies like mine do
give manufacturers and distributors something in return -- increased sales.

> Or is there something you're offering that panel
> maker for access to his protocol that I didn't
> catch?

I usually don't need the keybuss protocol but I offer my purchase orders in
return for what I do require.  That usually works well enough.

> They're stupid if they give away something for
> nothing, aren't they?  I don't believe in patronizing
> stupid vendors.

I believe in encouraging my suppliers to do whatever makes it easier for my
customers to use that product.  One of the most frequent requests is for the
manuals.  I provide those with the product.  If the manual is available
online I share it with those who have a legitimate need for it -- clients,
prospective clients, friendly competitors, etc.

> You claimed that "security through obscurity" was
> "pathetic", IIRC.

Someone else put it that way, but I agree.

> My Fort Knox *analogy* is therefore quite relevant.

Security at Fort Knox is primarily provided by heavily fortified walls and a
contingent of well-armed guards.  The electronic security uses industry
standard equipment and techniques.  The work was done in compliance with
pulished mil-specs and established standards.  If you want to devote the
time to it, you can learn who the service providers are, what equipment was
installed and how.

The primary reason Fort Knox is so secure is twofold.  Most people believe
it's impenitrable so almost no one tries to break in.  The other is that the
multi-layered systems (CCTV, live guards, various types of intrusion and
perimeter sensors) are strong enough to detect or stop even someone who
knows the system.  If not, we would have had to treat the installers the way
the Egyptians did upon completion of the pyramids.  Most modern technicians
would object to contracts which call for their entombment.  :^)

> Anyone charged with protecting something REALLY
> valuable doesn't go about revealing the details of that
> protection to any Joe on the internet who asks...

There's a huge difference between free and open discussion of security
system protocols and revealing the mens to gain entry to any particular
home.

> They usually don't reveal it to anyone who doesn't
> have a "need to know."

Hollywood spies and crooked politicians worry about "need to know".  In this
forum we discuss means of improving security and HA systems.  Anyone with an
interest in the subject has sufficient need to know.

> Why do they call the men who protect the president
> "The Secret Service?"

Umm, because no one would want their friends to know that they have anything
to do with the guy?  :^)

> Wouldn't your theory of "non-obscure security"
> dictate that they call it the "Public Service"

Nope.  That name is trade marked by a bus company in NJ.

> --- snip ---
>
> Perhaps you can explain to me why you, or me or
> any Joe Websurfer, would be entitled to design
> details about a HA or alarm panel?

Sure thing.  If Joe Websurfer wants to install an HA or alarm system at the
Websurfer residence he needs to understand how the system works.  Likewise,
if the Websurfer family is fed up with poor service and slow response to
alarms from Brick & Mortar Alarms, LLC, he is entitled to know how to
service his own system.

> Sure there are scoundrels that use secrecy to
> conceal shoddy design...

Really?  :^)

> but you can't just cover every situation with a
> blanket indictment of obscurity's value to
> security the way you did.

It's not a blanket indictment.  It's simply a fact that obscurity is a myth.
You cannot possibly keep panel design a secret no matter what you do.  That
means that obscurity cannot be maintained.  Furthermore, there are lots of
people other than alarm installers with a legitimate need to understand
their own security systems.

> Do you *honestly* believe that an alarm manufacturer
> would make their customers any safer by providing
> anyone who asks all the details of their hardware?

No one is asking for *all* the details.  Most DIY clients only want to know
how to program the system.

> If so, then YOU buy from them.

I do... daily.

> Let me buy from the people that don't think that's
> such a good idea for their customers. (-:

Feel free to continue.  Meanwhile, I'll keep sharing what I can about alarm
and HA system design with anyone who wants to learn.

> The casinos don't publish the numerous ways they
> check for cheats or their "cheat books" (faces of
> cheaters and dossiers of their preferred techniques)
> because they know that the more thieves know, the
> more they'll be cheated.

Wrong.  Casinos routinely invite TV camera crews and reporters in to view
and broadcast to the public the innards of their anti-cheating and
anti-crime systems, including video cameras catching employees and customers
trying to beat the system.  By doing so they create an image of practically
unbeatable security which significantly reduces the number of people who are
willing to try to cheat.

>> Likewise, spare us the 9/11 hype.  Sure, it was
>> indeed a tragedy but it has nothing to do with
>> the thread.
>
> Jeez.  You must see red a lot.

Nope.  We just prefer to focus on things that matter to HA and security
alarms.  Crazies flying airplanes into the World Trade Center have nothing
to do with your home alarm system.

> --- snip ---

[Gentle Readers: What follows is completely OT but what the heck...]

> The Feds are spending BILLIONS on "security
> through obscurity."  They are removing thousands
> of previously public documents about the national
> infrastructure from the WWW.

... while collecting tens of thousands of pages on such "terrorist"
organizations as the ACLU.  Don't for one minute believe that the present
administration gives a rat's jiminex about national security.  Their *only*
concern is consolidation of their own grip on power and the financial
windfall they and their friends have gained because of 9/11.

> Why do you think they are doing that?  Because
> security often comes through obscurity.

Bushit!

> The best minds they could find....

Heh, heh, heh... :^)

> Why do you think the NSA is the most obscure
> branch of the federal government?

Makes it easier for them to steal $billions from the public?

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

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