Re: Lying Competition

["E DAWSON" <edawson@xxxxxxxx>]

"tourman" <robercampbell@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:6187f881-0527-4e1a-9b58-65e64d23b474@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Apr 7, 1:54 pm, "E DAWSON" <edaw...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> "tourman" <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>
> news:f50ccbbe-5e41-4fba-82b0-0a01533fed1f@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> On Monday, March 25, 2013 10:22:21 PM UTC-4, Chris wrote:
> > Anyone here ever have issues with other alarm companies - door knockers
> > or
> > real companies - trying to steal your clients by telling them you're out
> > of business, etc.
>
> > Anything that should or shouldn't be done about them?
>
> > - Chris
>
> You are quite right ! Sometimes it seems as if some of the alarm companies
> are worse than the low life we are trying to protect our customers
> against.
> Thank goodness they are in the minority; however there are enough of them
> that they can do quite some damage.
>
> Up here in Ottawa, I like many companies, do our fair share of takeovers.
> One of the larger firms up here in Ottawa (Kodiak Alarms for one)with
> about
> 10,000 customers, seems to be getting away with disreputable practices.
> ALL
> their alarm boards are locked regardless of who owns them; ALL of their
> boards don't have any kind of auto test programmed in, so they never know
> or
> care whether their client's systems are working or not.With so many
> customers going VoIP today, this is an invitation to disaster !! I know
> this
> through multiple takeovers,as well as talking directly to their
> installers.
>
> There are so many others that I have comprised a list of installer codes
> for
> local companies that lock their boards, and I willingly give it out to
> anyone who asks. I figure that's the only ways to beat these lowlife
> companies at their own game. If they don't lock boards, they're not on my
> list !!
>
> Then we have companies like DSC that deliberately encrypt their newest
> line
> of boards so they can't be unlocked...!!
>
> Door knockers and others of their ilk will always be with us. For many,
> money is always put before ethics in the way they operate. As long as
> customers are stupid enough to believe you can get something for nothing
> in
> this business, these guys will continue to flourish. It's been the same
> for
> the 20 or so years I've been in the business. I doubt anything will change
> any time soon...
>
> Hi,
>
> I hear and understand what your frustration is in regards to disreputable
> companies. I do think differently in regards to locked boards though. The
> fact that a company locks the boards while they are monitoring them, does
> not translate into being a disreputable company. We do lock boards when
> they
> can be locked, while we are monitoring them, to protect ourselves from
> "disreputable companies" trying to take over any monitored system under a
> monitoring agreement, as well as 'disreputable customers' who are trying
> to
> leave un-ashamedly prematurely.

RHC: Yes, locking boards does have legitimate uses such as the ones
you've stated. And as long as the company doing the locking is
diligent enough to remember to dial in and unlock the board when the
client leaves them, I have no issue. But lets be realistic here; once
the client is no longer paying for monitoring, most companies dismiss
the need for any further action on their part. Also, many smaller
dealers leave the business, and most certainly wouldn't dial in to
them all and unlock the board. Hell....many are still not set up for
dialing in to their panels even if they wanted to ! So the end result
of locking boards within the total industry, is the proliferation of
locked boards, owned by customers, say when they buy the home, who are
now denied access to THEIR personal property. This is like me selling
you a used car with an inpenetrable padlock on the hood ! And on top
of that, there are the even larger numbers of companies big and small
that DELIBERATELY  lock the boards simply to be mean about other
clients taking over panels that they have installed. This is nothing
but chickenshit, but goes on in untold numbers of cases....it's
chickenshit because new boards today are no more than $50 or $60 bucks
wholesale, so it doesn't even have that intended purpose. When taken
as a whole, it serves more  to frustrate homeowners switching homes
than it does good for it's very few legitimate uses.
>
> One interesting story of note, I will mention now. About a year ago, we
> were
> monitoring a very large alcoholic beverage retail establishment. There was
> an Ademco 128FB board that had a fire system, burglary, and some access
> control tied into it. Now when we take over a system, we have to go
> line-by-line over all the programming and every little device or screw
> connection is checked out thoroughly. Yes, it is very time consuming, but
> we
> assume that the last tech wasn't so swift. Most of the time, it proves to
> be
> true. When we certify a system, we know that we have done everything
> possible to make it work right, and we should not have any surprises down
> the line.
>
> After having monitored this system about 2 years, I was called for a
> service
> call to address a problem with the wireless door contact on one of the
> main
> doors. The 5816 needed replacing in this case. When I tried to get into
> programming with the installer code for this system, I found that I could
> not get in. Puzzled, I resorted to the power down mode, since this system
> could not be locked out. When I got back into programming, I first checked
> the installer code section, and behold, I found that it had been changed
> to
> none other than "ADT's" installer code. Wow, I thought, that's a switch. I
> checked other parts of the programming and they had perverted that too.
> Realizing the gravity of the situation, I enlisted the services of a real
> police officer in the employ of the store, to personally witness the
> changes
> in the programming. I got his name, badge number, and cell number; and he
> agreed to help me any way he could. After taking up a conversation with
> the
> manager of the store whom I was on good terms with, I was apprised of the
> fact that there had been 2 technicians for over half a day, that had gone
> thru that system some time ago. It appears that they were taking over the
> system until the time that they informed the owner that he would have to
> spend $800 on a compatible ADT cellular backup for his system. The owner
> nixed the take-over when he realized all that was involved. Problem was,
> those technimorphians had gone thru most of the programming already. By
> the
> way, I don't consider an Uplink cellular backup incompatible with any
> central station.
>
> The company sent the owner a registered certified-receipt letter the next
> day, informing him how he had put our company at liability for his
> reckless
> behavior. He was given 5 business days to contact us so that I could go
> back
> out there and reprogram the entire system at his cost this time. A copy
> was
> sent to the Fire Marshall of this large city that he was in, as well as
> the
> insurance company of record that he was insured with. There was a clause
> that if the company did not hear from him, that they would assume that he
> went to another company... and he did. Good riddance!
>
> If this system could have been locked out, this would never have happened.
> The ability to lock a board is to protect the system while you are
> monitoring it, not to prevent an authorized take-over. Also, if you did
> lock
> your boards, it sure would make it a little harder for the company that
> you
> mentioned from taking over your panels. By the way, we do send an
> auto-test
> on a regular basis. You should have a strong clause in your monitoring
> agreement that thoroughly puts the responsibility of overseeing the phone
> line upon the customer's shoulders also; that makes them liable if they
> change to VoIP and their system won't communicate anymore because the
> phone
> line is now back-fed to the mainboard.

RHC: Certainly no argument that it might have prevented this attempted
takeover. But one instance does not excuse the major industry wide
abuse of this feature. Taken in total, it should be abolished from
panels and serves little real use.
>
> Since you say that you do have a list of installer codes from the
> companies
> that lock their boards, it reasons that you have found a way to get into
> them. It is noble that you are willing to share the information to
> reputable
> companies that do reputable take-overs. Just make sure that the info does
> not get out to any 'bad' company. I do find that using 'ONE' installer
> code
> company-wide, is a recipe for disaster. Do notice that in the paragraphs
> above I did say "with the installer code for this system" had been
> changed.
> If you can find a system to assign, randomly generate, or
> pull-out-of-a-hat,
> an installer code for each system that you monitor; you will more
> concisely
> protect your customers' systems from these disreputable companies at
> large.
>
> As far as DSC is concerned, the boards can be gotten for about $40 or so,
> depending upon your particular supplier. That is not that great a cost to
> be
> overcome. Keep them around until you eventually find out the code that
> some
> tech put into an un-lockable system by the same company. And then again,
> you
> can send them to Florida, to get unlocked by Tech-man.com. Or better yet,
> you could even turn it into a deductible 'business trip' during the 'warm'
> months of February/March in Ottawa and bask in the sunlight and beaches of
> the west coast of Florida. Tell him to take about a week when you drop
> them
> off personally, no rush, take your time!

RHC: Jim Rojas and I have worked together for years in unlocking
boards. He does the US and I do Canada. We have over the years
exchanged "secrets" of this nature, although I don't pretend to have
the breadth of knowledge he does on this subject.  BTW, I don't
release the lists of installer codes...I simply give out the codes to
companies calling me directly, provided they themselves are not on the
list (if they are, they lock boards, and they can go to hell !! I
won't give them anything but the one finger salute !!)

The newest line of DSC panels (1616, 1832) cannot be unlocked because
DSC deliberately further encrypted their panels internally...as one
party from DSC told me.."every board you unlock is one new board we
don't sell"...So you have an industry wide situation that is totally
self serving to all in it, except the eventual customer, who more
often than not gets burned by someone in the industry.

Jim is correct; this honest, straightforward approach runs counter to
the norm in this industry. But that doesn't make it just or correct;
it just makes the industry and those in it who practice this
disreputable practice a little more dishonest than many of them
already are...

Hi,

I haven't cracked DSC's stuff yet, I have not had the chance to spend time
on it. I discovered quite by accident how to get into any Ademco-Honeywell
panel in the field, in about 3-5 minutes. So that company is now a
no-brainer due to their slip up in programming logic. Networx takes a little
longer in the field since I have to power up the computer; but then they are
wide open no matter what anyone has done to it. I am not too worried about
locked boards personally. I already know about some DSC failures in logic
programming, so who knows, maybe this year I will figure it out...if I get
the time. The trick is in understanding the logic and hierarchy of the
programmers, they do slip up and are not infallible.

We do actually physically unprogram every alarm panel when we unmonitor a
system as well as remove decals and signs on the property. They are leased
to the subscriber only for the time that they are monitored. Some of them
seem to come close to crying when they realize they won't be keeping them.
They can get really ticked off. Sweet! The company policy is if our signs
are up, its monitored. If its not, there gone. Totally unlike Heh-Dee-Tees
50-50 chance that the sign has no system behind it...and then about an
80-90% chance that its a 3dr/motion system. I think thieves must love them.

Oh yes, since all installer codes assigned are different for everyone, we
can give out to any competitor over the phone, if need be, the installer
code for the system...its going to be one of 10,000, if that will help you.
What does need to happen to the industry is some laws that accompany the
low-voltage licensing. It should be tied to any licensee, that they are
required to either give out the code or unlock the panel within 24-48 hours
of a formal request by the owner...and I do mean either a faxed or emailed
request-not hiding behind a certified receipt letter either. There is
something important in keeping a system secure while you are monitoring it.
As per the example given in the first post about the tampering of the
monitored system by ADT, the gravity of the situation occurs when something
bad happens, which then gets all the lawyers, attorneys,  barristers and
solicitors out of the woodwork to begin to sue everyone. That is what was so
troubling about the simpleton subscriber who aborted the takeover. Security
companies, in my estimation, have a responsibility to also protect the
system from the not-so-smart-nor-swift subscribers. Lately, we have even
begun to put security seals on the panel boxes so that we can readily see
any breach of the panel itself. As for the companies that operate with
degenerate standards, they will always be around...like most politicians.