Re: Wireless system thoughts, please read and reply

[mister accavanno <mraccavanno357@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Jan 1, 5:22=A0am, "Bill" <billnomailnosp...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> An answer to your question is to look at automotive computers and how
> they work internally. Or to look at the "programming" for a computer
> in a car.
>
> You will not find this information! Period!
>
> Why? Because it costs companies tons of money to develop this stuff
> and they don't want their competitors to copy their designs.
>
> That is the nature of the electronics industry.
>
> Then many technicians in the field - automotive, electronics,
> appliances, whatever... are not software engineers. For repair,
> knowing just how to replace an entire faulty circuit board takes a LOT
> less training than hiring tons of people who are "software engineers"
> or "electrical engineers". Plus you can't find enough of these people
> even if you could pay them and did try to find them.
>
> Anyway there is no need for field technicians to know more about an
> electronic product other than to determine if a circuit board or
> component is working or not. Then if not working, they replace the
> circuit board / part.
>
> Now add to this the field of security. The idea is to not advertise
> how these things work. Also to make them work differently from model
> to model. And to make them work "randomly" and not in any predictable
> way.
>
> So *nothing* is going to be "the same" in the field of security. You
> will find that some manufacturers intentionally design things
> differently.
>
> So for every product which works one way, you will find many others
> which work differently.
>
> Same with wire colors used. In some cases all the wires are the same
> color. This is intentional so no one knows what wire is what.
>
> And you certainly are NOT going to find a "security system wire color
> code standard" anywhere!
>
> And that is the idea. No idea what is installed where or how exactly
> it works.
>
> FYI - Look at another field. Home heating systems or home central
> vacuum systems and the wire colors they use. What color wire is for
> what? No telling is the answer! Whatever colors the technician or
> do-it-yourself installer decided to use. And that has no need for
> security, just the way things are.
>
> Now add to all that the personality and culture of security people.
> For some situations you sign all sorts of "non-disclosure" agreements
> which say you are NOT to discuss anything to do with this and that.
>
> And you may not be sure exactly what you can or can't discuss, so
> safer to not discuss anything!
>
> Also look at law enforcement people. It is common for a Sherriff's
> department to not share information with a city Police department
> which would help solve a case...
>
> In the security field, it is like pulling teeth to get anyone to share
> information about anything even when you are authorized to know all
> about something!
>
> If you are interested in electronics, you will have better luck
> learning/experimenting with non-security related wireless devices
> here...http://www.crazyengineers.com/forum/forum.php
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "mister accavanno" =A0wrote in message
> >I just got this job installing alarm systems. Now, listen, I am not a
> > certified technician, but more of a helper. So please bare with me
> > with these questions I have. My boss is a dick and I think is just a
> > miserable bastard. So I do not communicate with him at all. Plus, I
> > have not attended any technical or alarm installing classes.
> > I just am intrigued with the way this electronic equipment
> > works(communicates via airwaves, rf, ir, etc.). I know I am putting
> > myself at risk by asking such trivial questions and therefore will
> > probably be flamed with such responses like read a damn book, or
> > search on technical websites for the information. I do not have the
> > books, or any manuals and even the manuals I do get to read are only
> > related to the system we are installing at the time. It doesn't
> > inform
> > me with the information I am about to ask about. The last post I
> > posted, resulted with a with a few replies but did not inform me
> > with
> > the technical details for which I was hoping for.
> > I am concerned with wireless systems and the way the sensors
> > communicate with the Main Control Panel. Now, if you think that the
> > answers are a bit top secret and should not be described on a
> > security
> > forum such as this, I understand and will find the information
> > elsewhere, someday. It is not a life or death situation here, with
> > me.
> > I am just intrigued. I have some interesting thoughts on this
> > subject
> > and depending on the responses I receive, I will disclose my
> > thoughts
> > about this wireless intruder(burglar) industry. I think some of you
> > will be interested with what my thoughts are. My name is not
> > Paul(whoever that guy is). From what I understand by now, this guy
> > Paul has been a pain in the ass to many of this newsgroup's members.
> > Okay, we have the Main Control Unit, along with the pir sensors and
> > all the perimeter units on the doors and windows. I know there are
> > many other sensor units that detect noise, vibrations, etc. As I
> > stated in one of my first posts, when the owner of the house, or
> > retail store, or whatever warehouse or building is being secured by
> > a
> > wireless system, leaves the premises and activates their alarm
> > system,
> > the system is now in the armed mode. My question is, while in the
> > armed mode, the sensors are up on the wall probably with a green
> > diode
> > light blaring without a blink. If the information I have already,
> > the
> > sensor transmits a certain code every so often as programed. This
> > periodic transmission is a packet of some sort telling the MCU that
> > it
> > is working properly(that is is still there, the battery is still in
> > good condition, all is well, etc.). Other than that, the sensor is
> > just there in an idle mode. That is until an unidentified object
> > consisting of a certain amount of heat passes through it's protected
> > area. At that point, if I am correct, the unit transmits a message
> > that tells the MCU that the closed alarm loop has been broken at
> > that
> > zone. An alarm message is then sent to the central monitoring
> > station.
> > Am I correct at this point? Please comment as to what I have written
> > so far.
> > Okay, if while the system is armed and the owners of the facility
> > are
> > away, the sensor is idle and only transmits to the MCU the "all is
> > well" packet periodically as programmed. Now, without any detection
> > of
> > an intruder passing by, how often does the unit transmit these
> > packets. There is probably an industry set amount of minutes or
> > hours
> > that these are sent, right? At that moment is there a blink in the
> > green diode on the unit, or no? I am aware that most of the
> > frequencies used in the USA operate on either 315mhz, 433mhz, or
> > 868mhz, am I correct? When these packets are sent to the MCU what do
> > they consist of? Is it just a burst of one of these frequencies, or
> > are they encoded or encrypted with a particular message? Once again,
> > exactly how many minutes apart are they sent. Don't get me wrong, I
> > think if I just sit under the sensor in a blind spot with a rf
> > frequency counter, I would be able to determine exactly when they
> > are
> > transmitted. We are talking only about wireless systems here. I do
> > have an underlying interest for asking these questions and when an
> > expert in this forum addresses my post, I will initiate a very
> > interesting discussion. Please give me a full explaination to all
> > parts of my post. Trust me when I say that you will be interestingly
> > surprised to what my thoughts are regarding this subject matter.
> > Thank you,
> > Frank Accavanno

Bill, I must state that it is your post which I respect the most. You
believe that some technical details should just be left unsaid, or
undisclosed, in order to protect the security alarm industry.  Of
course, my underlying motive by posting my message was to see if any
important information regarding the transmission of, whether they be
packets, or bursts of frequencies from the sensors would bring out any
information that I could use to put into the manuals I am putting
together. Now, of course you do not know who I am and therefore you,
Bill, deserve a big happy smiley face, or a star sticker on the top of
your posting. All the information is out there, regardless if I get
the info here or anyplace else. (oh, wait a minute . Let me press the
enter button in order to begin a new paragraph...that was close).
There, is everyone happy? Or would you like me to indent the new
paragraph a few spaces like we used to do in junior high school? Let
us just be grown ups here and just be concerned with the content of
the words and sentences.
              I could start a new paragraph in this format aswell. But
enough about all the grammatical errors and let's get onto an
important subject. Well, I have to say that with all the frequency
information that has been included within my last posts, I hope that
at least Bill has an idea as to where I am going with this.
             Jamming frequencies is where I am headed. That is why I
was trying to pull some technical details concerning these packets
which are sent from the sensors to the MCU  periodically as
programmed. Now, the ways I feel that I could defeat, or jam these
sensors have to do with the timing that these packets of (all is
well,etc) are sent to the MCU.
Like I said, I have no technical education concerning alarm systems,
or even the installation of alarm systems. But I do work as a helper
installing alarms. I know that most systems allow a limited amount of
rf interference and thusly will allow a packet or two to not be
received. Therefore, if you know what frequency the system is
operating on, and know the timing distance between each "all is well"
packet being sent to the mcu, With the right frequency jamming device
operating on the 315mhz,433mhz and 868mhz all at the same time, a
person would be able to walk right passed one of these sensors and
into the next room. At that point you would shut the jamming devices
off and allow the "all is well packets" to transmit and receive as
programed. With a powerful cell phone jammer, a wireless camera 2.4g
jamming device. A prepared and well informed criminal would be able to
jam wireless systems and walk right pass them. Of course I am stating
that you jam the interior sensors on the 315mhz, 433mhz, and 868mhz
all at the same time. And powerfully if able. All you have to do is
jam the sensor and/or receiver for about a minute or so just to get
passed it to another room. Now, you could jam these wireless sensors
in a way where you do not have to have a trouble message sent to the
CMS. Also, you can jam these sensors, until you are infront of the
main control unit to disable it all together. Of course during this
whole time you have a powerful wireless cell phone back up jammer un
use. That is if you choose to cut the main phone lines first. But,
working on a covert entry, just jamming the wireless sensors would be
much more useful. Being called, and have to go. I will be back.