Re: Commercial Burg

["Hakma" <hakma@xxxxxxxxx>]

Very well said Jim.

What 's the worst that can happen ? The store got broken into and insurance
carrier refuse to compensate due to the fact that the installed system is
not a UL "certified" system.

Never take the store owner word for it, get it in writing from the insurance
agency and also check with the UL office.

Now back to the hardware, pretty much most, if not all, of the hardware been
marketed nowadays have UL listing so no big deal there. The biggest concern
in a UL system is probably the installation, need a motion sensor in every
corner, motion sensor above T-Bar ceiling, holdup buttons everywhere,
glassbreak sensor, heat and vibration sensor in the vault, 24 hour backup
battery, dual path reporting with scheduled open/close etc. etc.

I am in Canada and the requirement for a commercial ULC system is more or
less the same as Jim described. Both installing company and monitoring
station have to be listed and pay a large sum of money every year for the
listing, inspector come to inspect your installation yearly and you pay for
all expenses and a inspection fee. They will ride with you to go to your
installation and ask you do open up various thing so they can look at the
wiring, tamper and supervisory. The installing company also have to perform
a yearly inspection on all their listed system and pay for a certificate for
those systems. And who is paying for all that ? You guess right, the
customers ......

So if you have never installed a listed system in the past and you are
trying to undercut your competition in price, you may end up losing a lot of
money over the term of the contract. Or you may have to hand over the
completed job
to a UL listed company.




"Jim" <alarminex@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:b6053e1f-d8aa-4d20-a6d1-4414dec5ea69@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hi Les,

I haven't investigated or been interested in UL for a long time.
However I just thought I'd pass this on, just in case........
Years ago, in order to install UL commercial systems, it wasn't only
the equipment and the method of installation that was required but in
order to qualify, any company wanting to install UL commercial had to
install (I think) 5 systems using all the  protocols and equipment and
then have them inspected ( for a fee) by UL) These systems could not
be sold as UL certified so you just had to install them for someone at
your expense for the additional cost of parts and procedures. Once the
all those installation passed your company was certified and then you
could obtain a certificate for subsequent UL installs and UL would
come out occasionally and inspect. You had to pay for each job
cetification and for each inspection and if they found something wrong
and they had to come back, you had to pay another inspection fee. The
more times they found something wrong the harder they were on you the
next time.

All this is from 20 or more years ago. But ..... on the other hand,  I
know that within the last few years, UL had quite a shake up and was
even attending alarm association meetings ( imagine that !!  ) across
the country trying to tell everyone how they had streamlined their
operation.  So it's quite possible that the requirements are different
now.

However, it sure would be hell if you installed this system meeting
all the physical requirements and then called for a UL inspector to
find out they wouldn't come because you hadn't qualified.

I ultimately decided not to go that route because of the bureacratic
BS that accompanies any agency like UL and, in my case, the customers
typically decided they'd rather pay the increased insurace premieums
then pay the thousands of dollars for the UL system. They just had me
put in an extra secure system for a much lower price. UL's recent
decline (in my opinion) is long overdue. At one time they were the
only agency of importance surviving from back in the 30's I think.
They formed a legion with insurance companys, who made them the souce
of all requirements for alarm systems ( and foolishly many still do,
because it's easier then them having to look for another standards
lab). Since there was no competition back then, UL became over
indulged with self importance and never updated their standards,
listing and requirements to meet the changing times and technology.
It's only been in recent years, since other labs and listing agencies
have become prominent that they woke up and noticed that they were
losing business and they got rid of the people who kept it operating
back in time.

Something  you may want to do when you make the quote, is to make up a
seperate quote for a system that will do close to the same thing as
the UL system but using normal equipment and protcols. I found that
most alarm companys who look to do UL systems are doing it for the rip
off prices they can get and so would not even consider offering a
lesser system. So doing this just may get you the job.  In the case of
a jewlery store, if they take all the proper physical and operating
precautions that they should take anyway, an extra good normal
installation with back up and some double detection just might make
them feel comfortable enough to forgo the reduction in insurance
premiums. Suggest that they compare the difference. Depends on the
size of the business, the value of their product and the reduction of
premium.

Hope this helps.