Re: Need for pool

[Frank Olson <use_the_email_links@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Robert L Bass wrote:
> "Frank Olson" wrote:
>>
>>> Wrong as usual, Olson.  I never advertised the M1G home automation
>>> system as being appropriate for fire alarm until it received the UL
>>> listing.
>>
>> Did you actually come out and say so?
>
> Yep.

Nope.  You even listed smoke detectors with it.  No mention that it
isn't "UL Listed" for fire (or that the listing is "pending").
http://web.archive.org/web/20041104214015/www.bassburglaralarms.com/subcategory_335.htm



>
>> How many of your clients (after reviewing the installation
>> instructions which detail the proper hookups) actually went
>> ahead and installed fire detectors on their systems?
>
> None that I know of.  During the first year or so of the ELK-M1G we
> didn't sell that many of them.

But you list several models of two wire System Sensor smokes...
Funny...  the panel wasn't even UL Listed for fire back then.


>
>> Hint:  They're the ones that bought the "complete package" from you.
>
> Hint: You have no idea who buys what from me.

No doubt it's the "few" folks that have bothered to post complaints here
(and at the BBB).  And I seriously doubt they'll ever buy from you again.


>
>>>> Since you boast about selling "complete systems", I'd be willing to
>>>> bet you provided smoke alarms [to ELK M1G clients]...
>>>
>>> You're wrong some more.  But then, we're used to that.
>>
>> Then you *don't* sell complete systems...
>
> You're wrong.  I didn't sell smokes with M1G panels until they received
> the UL fire listing.

Interesting.  The internet archive says differently.  I guess it's all
part of the ASA conspiracy to discredit you.


>
>>>> I note you're also selling non-cross-listed 2 wire smokes
>>>> (Napco Firewolf) with DSC and Ademco panels...
>>>
>>> Once again you're wrong.  I recommend System Sensor smokes for all
>>> Honeywell panels.
>>
>> As long as they're four wire smokes, compatibility isn't an issue, is
>> it? Of all the smoke detectors you list though, only one two wire unit
>> is compatible (and it's not even on the Ademco page).  Of course, if
>> "Napco" says their Firewolf 2-wire smoke is compatible then it must be
>> so...  Heh!
>
> Why would the FW2 be on the Ademco page?  It's a Napco product.  It is
> indeed listed for use with the DSC systems (remember, that's what you
> complained about in this thread).  You don't even know that the Napco
> Fw2 is listed for use with the DSC products yet you flame me for
> offering them together.

*DSC* does NOT list the Napco Firewolf as an acceptable two wire
detector.  Until the PANEL MANUFACTURER does, there's no way anyone in
their right mind would accept the installation.  But then, things might
be a little different down your way.  I keep forgetting about this
little thing called the 49th parallel.


>
> Hint: Learn something about this business other than how to be a counter
> clerk.  Then you can post with knowledge as well as hatred.  You'll only
> look like a jerk then.  When you post with nothing but hatred you just
> look like a stupid jerk.

Where have I posted anything hateful?  I happened to "call you" on a
mistake you made.  It's one of several.  Get over it.


>
>>> They're listed for the purpose (unlike the idiotic relay you
>>> recommended using to connect 110VAC smokes to low voltage alarm
>>> systems).
>>
>> What "idiotic relay" would that be??  Care to post the Google?
>
> You know exactly what I'm speaking about.  You also ought to know (but
> don't) that it's a violation to use it.

A violation of what??  "Electrical Code"?  "NFPA"?  "The Charter of
Rights and Freedoms"?  "The Constitution"?


>
>>> They also happen to come from the same distributor which saves
>>> clients a bit on shipping costs.
>>
>> I'm sure.
>
> You would know if you had a clue.

That's just it.  I do.


>
>>> I sell lots of Napco smokes to DIY clients who install their own
>>> Napco systems.  I also have a couple of small dealer clients who
>>> order 30 to 40 Napco smokes every few weeks.
>>
>> Yes, I'm sure.  And I'm also sure "Napco" says it's alright to install
>> their smokes on any panel *they* say.
>
> Napco says the smokes are listed for use with specific panels, including
> the ones you flamed me for offering them with.  Try to wiggle out of
> looking like an idiot (again).

Funny.  I don't see any "Napco" smoke detector product listed as
compatible with *any* DSC panel.  If you're referring to the listing
addemdum available at the Napco website at
http://napcosecurity.com/images/manuals%20firewolf/FW2_WI1009F.05_ADDM.pdf
I only see the 1555, 4020, 5010, and 5020 listed.  *DSC*, however, DOES
NOT list them with *any* of their panels, therefore no installing or
servicing company would use them.


>
>>>> You even list the Napco Firewolf as a "DSC Smoke Detector" (the
>>>> furthest thing from the truth I've ever seen) on your kludge site.
>>>
>>> I don't list Napco smokes as "DSC Smoke Detectors."
>>
>> Oh??  I actually expected you to respond this way.  It's quite obvious
>> you DON'T know what you list on your own site...  Tsk!
>
> I put them there.  They are listed on my site as Napco smokes.  After
> all, Napco does make them.  But please go on, trying to change the
> subject rather than admit how ignorant you were to post this flame in
> the first place.

The "master heading" is still "DSC Smoke Detectors".  Which is extremely
misleading.  You must spend a lot of time issuing RMA's for the
"dealers" you sell to.


>
>>> I do include them on the same pages as several DSC panels though.
>>> Napco lists the FW-2 for use with the following DSC panels: PC1555,
>>> PC4020CF, PC5010, PC5020, UA000, PC4701, PC5010 and PC5020.  If you
>>> ever actually installed any of this stuff you would know that.
>>
>> If *you* knew anything about cross listing you'd know it's the *panel*
>> manufacturer that specifies which smoke detectors are compatible, not
>> the other way around.  So much for your much vaunted "expertise".
>
> Once again you demonstrate your complete ignorance of the industry.
> Panel manufacturers and/or detector manufacturers are free to test and
> list their products for compatibility.  They all do so.  Take a look at
> the listings for newer System Sensor smokes with older panels.  The
> panel manufacturers will list the panels for popular smokes being made
> at the time the panels are created.  Smoke manufacturers routinely test
> and list their new products with existing panels.  Again, if you
> actually worked with this stuff instead of being a counter clerk you'd
> certainly know this.  Why, everyone here (except Jiminex and Cracker)
> know it.

You're wrong Robert.  I've been involved in the installation and
commissioning of new fire alarm systems for more years than you legally
installed alarms.  You've only been in the position to say you "legally
installed" and serviced alarm equipment from 1983 to 1999 (you yourself
could not pull a permit until 1986 though).  That's the length of time
you held the proper "L" licenses.  Of course, this means that "hundreds"
of alarm systems you installed between 1979 and 1986 were done so
without benefit of the proper permits and those between 1979 and 1983
without a qualified installer.


>
>>> However, speaking of "furthest things from the truth" on websites, I
>>> get a kick out of the way you "thank" manufacturers and trade
>>> associations for material you stole from their websites.
>>
>> What material have I "stolen"?  And what's wrong with acknowledging
>> the contributions various organizations have made for the betterment
>> of our industry.
>
> You "thanked" them for supporting your website.

Uh-huh.


> They didn't participate
> at all.

Where did I say they did?


> By the way, Google gives you a page rank of "0" (you know, same as your
> experience level). Nice lknowing how important your website is, isn't
> it.  :^)

Page rank (as you've often stated), doesn't mean a thing.


>
>> For all your "belly-aching" (and bally-hooing), I haven't received a
>> single complaint or request to have *any* link or image removed (other
>> than the bogus complaint from the "Boinks" guy).
>
> Bogus?  They ordered you to remove stolen material from your website.

What "stolen material" was that?


> You promptly removed it and THEN posted here how it never was there in
> the first place.  What a moron.

It's never been "removed".  You forgot to "refresh" your browser.  I've
kept this group apprised of every detail as related to Jim's "Tech-Help"
software.


>
>> You, OTOH have run afoul of several manufacturers, haven't you?
>
> Yep.  There are two companies which asked me not to sell their products
> online because other dealers complained that they can't compete with my
> prices.

Heh...  Nice dodge.


>
>
>>>> If you're going to question someone's morals and ethics, I'd suggest
>>>> you take a good long look in the mirror first.
>>>
>>> I do that every day and I see a person trying to do the right thing.
>>> You, OTOH, see a person who hasn't tried to do anything useful,
>>> helpful or honest in your entire, miserable life.
>>
>> That just proves that you don't know me at all.
>
> You and I both know what a liar you are.  Both of us know you never did
> any of the bullshit stuff you claimed with airplanes, ladders, etc.

Really??  How do *you* know that?


> Both of us know you lied about calling ADI.

Really?  How do *you* know that?


> Both of us know you lie all
> the time.  You don't even fool the IB -- they know it too.

The good old 3D Bass is back.  Dodge, Duck, Deceive.


>
>>>> And some poor family will burn to death after having installed a
>>>> non-UL listed fire alarm panel...
>>>
>>> The accusation might sting if there had been a shred of truth in your
>>> reasons for making the claim.
>>
>> According to you, you sold "100's" of ELK M1Gold panels *before* they
>> were UL Listed for fire.  You also claim you only sell "complete"
>> security packages that always include fire detectors.  What's the
>> matter?  Is either of the above not true?
>
> You're lying again.  I never said that I sell only complete systems
> online.  I do indeed sell complete systems -- lots of them.  But I also
> sell just a panel if that's what the client wants.

But "just a panel" isn't a "complete system", now is it Robert?


> Some people order a
> few components.  The best sales though, are government orders.  Those
> often run into tens of thousands of dollars.

Bully for you.


>
> Hmm.  While we're on the subject, remember when you lied saying I don't
> even have a DUNS or a CCR registration?  Wrong again.

I never posted that.  And I could care less whether you do or don't.


>
>> Did you post a warning on your website that the M1Gold *wasn't* UL
>> Listed for fire??  No.
>
> No one *ever* ordered an M1G system from us without calling first.  The
> panel was sold with the notice clearly printed, "UL pending".  That
> information was on my website and on the documentation from ELK.

Not according to the Internet Archive.  You listed System Sensor smokes
with the Elk panel, Bass, from "day one".  And there's no "UL pending"
notice anywhere on your site either (that I could see).


> You
> chose to ignore it when you first tried that flame.

I just have a good memory for facts.


> It's the same as
> the current one about Napco smokes and DSC panels.  You blast me for
> selling them together but you don't even know that they are listed for
> use together.

They are NOT listed for use by the Panel manufacturer.  You can spout
this nonsense all day long.  It won't alter the fact that you're wrong.
  No legitimate Dealer would install a two wire smoke detector that
wasn't listed as compatible *by* the panel manufacturer.  Which brings
up a valid question:  How many systems have you sold with the *wrong*
detectors?


> Then you flame about who does the listing but you don't
> know that *any* manufacturer can test and list its products for use with
> any other company's listed products.  Some expert. Phbbt.

If DSC, Edwards, Simplex, Elk, Napco, Notifier, FireLite or any other
PANEL manufacturer lists a smoke detector as UL (or ULC) cross-listed
with their specific PANEL, I'll install it.  Any conscientious installer
would as well.  I wonder how many of the systems *you* sell get "red
tagged" for non-compliant smokes?  This is the time when you really hope
the guys doing the inspections know what they're doing.


>
>> You were so eager to "make a mark" (and a buck) you took on a product
>> that you (a) knew nothing about (with the exception of what was in the
>> sales literature and manuals) and had never installed or serviced, (b)
>> was released while the UL listing was still "pending".  I consider the
>> latter to be the most irresponsible thing a vendor can do.
>
> Wrong again (as usual).  I bought a complete ELK-M1G when they first
> came out just so I could work learn the ins and outs of the system prior
> to offering it for sale.  With simpler systems I don't always need to do
> that but the ELK-M1G is so far ahead of most other panels and much more
> complex.

Heh....   right.  It's been sitting on your workbench.


>
> Now that you mention it though, I recall you claimed to have experience
> using them.  I asked ELK and they never heard of you.  Furthermore, at
> the time they said they had no distribution channel in or near
> Vancouver, BC.  As usual, you were lying.

Burtek is Elk's only national distribution channel that can sell the
M1-Gold.  Oddly enough, their head office happens to be in Vancouver.
They're now called "Burtek-ADI" by the way, but back when I purchased my
unit, it was just plain "Burtek".


>
>>> Of course, like every one of the thousands of flames you've posted,
>>> there's not even a distant cousin of the truth.
>>
>> I've backed everything I've said about you (that you incorrectly call
>> "a flame") with a verifiable reference (usually posted from your own
>> keyboard)...
>
> You've misquoted, misled, obfuscated, conjured and outright lied for years.

That's *your* specialty.


>
>> What have you managed?
>
> I manage a moderately successful online business, currently selling
> nearly $250K a month in security, home automation and custom electronics
> parts and systems.

Heh...  right.


> I manage to do so without making up fantastic
> stories of "borrowing" a Boeing 737 and snap-rolling it.

You made that one up.  Or should I say "you've misquoted, misled,
obfuscated, conjured and outright lied for years".


> I mange to do
> so without making up stories about levitating ladders, 50,000 volt
> shocks and other assorted, idiotic lies you regularly tell.

Now who's "making up stories"???


> I manage my
> online business despite your repeated attempts to interfere with my
> suppliers.

More baseless accusations.  I challenge you to back these up with cold
hard facts.


> I managed a small, "brick and mortar" alarm company with our
> own central station for decades while you were flipping burgers or
> pumping 'tane.

Sure, Bass.


>
>> Why not go back to ignoring me, Robert?
>
> I usually do.  I re-installed my newsreader and neglected to set the
> filters. Bye for now, moron.

Pity.  Now everyone else will have the benefit of knowing the *real*
reason why you ignore me.