Re: Church told to hang own fire panel

["Crash Gordon" <webmaster@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

That bidder made a big mistake providing engineering drawings along with the
bid, so the bidder gets ripped off for his time and expertise.


"Robert L Bass" <no-sales-spam@bassburglaralarms> wrote in message
news:Q7ydnbWBQL10fMzbnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
|> You seem to be focusing on the end result...
|
| With good reason.  If it works, it works, no?
|
| > I am starting at the very beginning of the
| > process. Step one: In our area you must
| > submit a set of plans (including cut sheets
| > and battery calcs) that are stamped with
| > either a fire planner stamp or licensed
| > engineer stamp...
|
| It was similar in CT where I ran an alarm
| company for 24 years.  The only difference
| was they did not require an engineer's stamp.
| If the job was done by a professional alarm
| company the person filling out the permit
| application had to show his license.  If it's
| being done by a building owner the license
| isn't required.  If it's being installed by an
| in-house electrician they ask for his license.
| That is pretty much the way things work all
| over the country.  With few exceptions (one
| being St. Louis County), the license is
| waived if it's being done by the building owner
| or his employees.
|
| > Typically these are CAD drawings on D
| > size...
|
| We were never required to include CAD
| drawings.  They wanted engineering cut
| sheets for all the products, a battery calc
| and, occasionally, a block diagram of the
| plan of protection.  A few of my customers
| have been asked for drawings.  Most of those
| have been in larger premises with addressable
| fire alarms.  Typically, they have the software
| and skills within their own engineering staff.
|
| One guy really cracked me up.  He got
| estimates from the majors and one or two
| local alarm companies.  Interested in learning
| more about the systems they were offering,
| he surfed for information online.  He found our
| www.BassBurglarAlarms.com website and
| was surprised at the difference in material
| cost.  He called, asked me about the various
| systems (I carry most of the same ones the
| professional alarm companies offer) and
| decided to buy the hardware from us.  One
| of the bidders had prepared drawings as
| part of his bid.  The customer used them to
| create his own, altering a few products to
| fit what he selected.
|
| > Not having an in house CAD person would
| > be the first road block...
|
| Large companies often do.
|
| > In most cases there is a backlog of several
| > weeks, sometimes even months in getting a
| > permit just to start to be able to pull wire...
|
| Wow!  Your local building inspector has a
| racket going.  Everywhere I've worked it took
| from one to ten days to get a permit.  Many
| inspectors would take the application, tell us
| they'd mail the permit to us and then say,
| "Go ahead and get started."
|
| > forget about the C of O, that is still miles
| > away from this first step...
|
| The Certificate of Occupancy is always the
| last step, regardless who puts the system in.
| It makes no difference who did the job as long
| as the permit was issued and the work was
| done to code.
|
| > A fee can be paid to the AHJ for after hours
| > expediting of the process...
|
| Where I worked that would be illegal.
|
| > I sincerely don't know how the AHJ would
| > react to someone in a DIY mode going down
| > there to get this whole process started...
|
| I do know because I've dealt with the situation
| countless times.  The vast majority simply want
| the proper forms filled out and the permit fee
| paid.  They're not particularly awed by licensed
| electricians, engineers, alarm installers or
| DIYers.  To them everyone's the same -- another
| job to inspect.  Every once in a while we run
| across an inspector with a bur under his saddle
| but it only takes a few minutes to make a copy
| of the appropriate state law and email or fax it to
| them.  Like the ghuy in Florida, they cave in as
| soon as they realize you know what you're talking
| about.
|
| > I think he or she would be told to get lost for
| > no other reason that everyone is far to busy
| > to try and walk a DIY through the process
| > when he or she is not following the normal
| > procedure...
|
| It isn't their job to walk anyone through anything.
| That includes alarm installers as well as DIYers.
|
| > I doubt that anyone there would know what procedure to tell a DIY to
follow...
|
| The "procedure" is to follow the instructions (if
| any) on the permit form.  Most are pretty
| straight-forward.  Sometimes customers ask me
| for guidance but most of the time they just do it
| themselves.
|
| > Additionally there is a "reputation" certain guys
| > that have a stamp get with the AHJ...
|
| That means nothing.  Anyone with a license can
| pull a permit even if he's never worked in that town
| before.  The same is true of DIYers.  The FM in
| West Hartford, CT, was a personal friend of mine.
| We had dinner together from time to time and we
| often shared a laugh at the local Sonitrash dealer's
| shenanigans.  But when I pulled a permit I paid
| the same fee and went through the same inspection
| as anyone else in the trade.  I didn't expect "special
| treatment" and I'd have thought less of my friend if
| he'd done so.
|
| Along with my own installations, I sold lots of systems
| to DIYers over the years.  None of them was ever
| refused a permit or a CO because they did their own
| installation.
|
| > Sometimes that rep helps to get things done more
| > quickly (because of years of trust and respect)...
|
| If that means "looking the other way" the local AHJ
| is doing the people of his community a disservice.
| He is paid to inspect every system, regardless how
| well he knows the technician.  Even a talented,
| knowledgeable installer occasionally makes a mistake
| and it is the purpose of the onspection process to
| reveal that and help get it resolved.
|
| > Others have a rep that causes the opposite
| > reaction...
|
| Mm-hmm.  Did I mention Sonitrash lately?  :^)
|
| > A DIY would probably get the fine tooth comb
| > inspection if it ever got that far...
|
| I would hope so.  The ionspection isn't done to keep
| DIYers from doing the job.  It's not there to protect
| industry margins.  Its purpose is to protect the public.
|
| > In our state the AHJ can add whatever he or
| > she wishes to the code...
|
| Within limits that is true everywhere.  However,
| if he isn't even handed all it takes is a letter to the
| state fire marshal to help him back on the right path.
|
| > I think banning DIY jobs would become a de facto
| > if not an actual code practice...
|
| You may like to think so but you're wrong.
|
| > The notion that training is not required for proper
| > programming the likes of a (Radionics) Bosch 8024
| > or 10024 (both now discontinued), or any Hochiki analog addressable
panel is simply not being
| > realistic...
|
| I don't sell those and I've never worked with them.
| I'll just take your word for it.  I do sell several
| addressable systems though and they're not hard to
| configure.  Firelite's MS-9050 and related versions
| is easy enough.  Here's a URL:
|
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com/ms9050ud_fire_alarm_control_panel_87945_prd1.htm
| I also sell a fair number of the Silent Knight systems:
|
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com/silent_knight_addressable_fire_alarm_381_ctg.htm
| Most clients have no trouble at all getting the
| systems up and running.  We actually field more
| tech support calls from people installing our
| whole-house entertainment systems (Russound,
| Xantech, etc.) than commercial fire alarms.
|
| > There is almost always an item that comes up
| > that you need tech support to help you through. If you have not had
training the factory won't
| > talk to you in most cases...
|
| When my clients need help they speak to me.  If
| I don't know the answer I call tech support.
|
| > Going after it with only the manual in hand is
| > really putting yourself out on a limb unnecessarily.
| > It might be penny wise but pound foolish to
| > attempt a DIY job beyond a certain size or in
| > certain jurisdictions...
|
| That all depends on the scope of the job and the
| jurisdiction in question.  Most of our DIY clients
| are doing systems with less than 150 points.  A
| few exceed that but they generally have a tech
| on hand.
|
| > What you save in one hand you'll spend in the
| > other...
|
| That sounds good but when the savings are in
| the thousands of dollars -- sometimes tens of
| thousands -- it's well worth spending the time to
| DIY.  It isn't for everybody, mind you, but most
| people with a modicum of tool skills and a bit of
| patience can get it right.
|
| > The annual inspection process that must be
| > followed after the installation and the monitoring
| > etc, etc. would just add more layers of potential
| > hassles...
|
| Not at all.  Where it is required the company can
| either hire a local alarm company or pay an in-
| house electrician to do the inspections.  Local
| alarm companies are usually delighted to get the
| added revenue without having to honor a warranty.
|
| > Eventually even the most dedicated DIY would
| > throw in the towel once a system of  a certain
| > size is reached.
|
| If the system is too big to handle, agreed.  Most
| are not though.
|
| --
|
| Regards,
| Robert L Bass
|
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| Bass Home Electronics
| 941-925-8650
| 4883 Fallcrest Circle
| Sarasota · Florida · 34233
| http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
| =============================>
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