Re: Church told to hang own fire panel

["Robert L Bass" <no-sales-spam@bassburglaralarms>]

> You seem to be focusing on the end result...

With good reason.  If it works, it works, no?

> I am starting at the very beginning of the
> process. Step one: In our area you must
> submit a set of plans (including cut sheets
> and battery calcs) that are stamped with
> either a fire planner stamp or licensed
> engineer stamp...

It was similar in CT where I ran an alarm
company for 24 years.  The only difference
was they did not require an engineer's stamp.
If the job was done by a professional alarm
company the person filling out the permit
application had to show his license.  If it's
being done by a building owner the license
isn't required.  If it's being installed by an
in-house electrician they ask for his license.
That is pretty much the way things work all
over the country.  With few exceptions (one
being St. Louis County), the license is
waived if it's being done by the building owner
or his employees.

> Typically these are CAD drawings on D
> size...

We were never required to include CAD
drawings.  They wanted engineering cut
sheets for all the products, a battery calc
and, occasionally, a block diagram of the
plan of protection.  A few of my customers
have been asked for drawings.  Most of those
have been in larger premises with addressable
fire alarms.  Typically, they have the software
and skills within their own engineering staff.

One guy really cracked me up.  He got
estimates from the majors and one or two
local alarm companies.  Interested in learning
more about the systems they were offering,
he surfed for information online.  He found our
www.BassBurglarAlarms.com website and
was surprised at the difference in material
cost.  He called, asked me about the various
systems (I carry most of the same ones the
professional alarm companies offer) and
decided to buy the hardware from us.  One
of the bidders had prepared drawings as
part of his bid.  The customer used them to
create his own, altering a few products to
fit what he selected.

> Not having an in house CAD person would
> be the first road block...

Large companies often do.

> In most cases there is a backlog of several
> weeks, sometimes even months in getting a
> permit just to start to be able to pull wire...

Wow!  Your local building inspector has a
racket going.  Everywhere I've worked it took
from one to ten days to get a permit.  Many
inspectors would take the application, tell us
they'd mail the permit to us and then say,
"Go ahead and get started."

> forget about the C of O, that is still miles
> away from this first step...

The Certificate of Occupancy is always the
last step, regardless who puts the system in.
It makes no difference who did the job as long
as the permit was issued and the work was
done to code.

> A fee can be paid to the AHJ for after hours
> expediting of the process...

Where I worked that would be illegal.

> I sincerely don't know how the AHJ would
> react to someone in a DIY mode going down
> there to get this whole process started...

I do know because I've dealt with the situation
countless times.  The vast majority simply want
the proper forms filled out and the permit fee
paid.  They're not particularly awed by licensed
electricians, engineers, alarm installers or
DIYers.  To them everyone's the same -- another
job to inspect.  Every once in a while we run
across an inspector with a bur under his saddle
but it only takes a few minutes to make a copy
of the appropriate state law and email or fax it to
them.  Like the ghuy in Florida, they cave in as
soon as they realize you know what you're talking
about.

> I think he or she would be told to get lost for
> no other reason that everyone is far to busy
> to try and walk a DIY through the process
> when he or she is not following the normal
> procedure...

It isn't their job to walk anyone through anything.
That includes alarm installers as well as DIYers.

> I doubt that anyone there would know what procedure to tell a DIY to follow...

The "procedure" is to follow the instructions (if
any) on the permit form.  Most are pretty
straight-forward.  Sometimes customers ask me
for guidance but most of the time they just do it
themselves.

> Additionally there is a "reputation" certain guys
> that have a stamp get with the AHJ...

That means nothing.  Anyone with a license can
pull a permit even if he's never worked in that town
before.  The same is true of DIYers.  The FM in
West Hartford, CT, was a personal friend of mine.
We had dinner together from time to time and we
often shared a laugh at the local Sonitrash dealer's
shenanigans.  But when I pulled a permit I paid
the same fee and went through the same inspection
as anyone else in the trade.  I didn't expect "special
treatment" and I'd have thought less of my friend if
he'd done so.

Along with my own installations, I sold lots of systems
to DIYers over the years.  None of them was ever
refused a permit or a CO because they did their own
installation.

> Sometimes that rep helps to get things done more
> quickly (because of years of trust and respect)...

If that means "looking the other way" the local AHJ
is doing the people of his community a disservice.
He is paid to inspect every system, regardless how
well he knows the technician.  Even a talented,
knowledgeable installer occasionally makes a mistake
and it is the purpose of the onspection process to
reveal that and help get it resolved.

> Others have a rep that causes the opposite
> reaction...

Mm-hmm.  Did I mention Sonitrash lately?  :^)

> A DIY would probably get the fine tooth comb
> inspection if it ever got that far...

I would hope so.  The ionspection isn't done to keep
DIYers from doing the job.  It's not there to protect
industry margins.  Its purpose is to protect the public.

> In our state the AHJ can add whatever he or
> she wishes to the code...

Within limits that is true everywhere.  However,
if he isn't even handed all it takes is a letter to the
state fire marshal to help him back on the right path.

> I think banning DIY jobs would become a de facto
> if not an actual code practice...

You may like to think so but you're wrong.

> The notion that training is not required for proper
> programming the likes of a (Radionics) Bosch 8024
> or 10024 (both now discontinued), or any Hochiki analog addressable panel is simply not being
> realistic...

I don't sell those and I've never worked with them.
I'll just take your word for it.  I do sell several
addressable systems though and they're not hard to
configure.  Firelite's MS-9050 and related versions
is easy enough.  Here's a URL:
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com/ms9050ud_fire_alarm_control_panel_87945_prd1.htm
I also sell a fair number of the Silent Knight systems:
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com/silent_knight_addressable_fire_alarm_381_ctg.htm
Most clients have no trouble at all getting the
systems up and running.  We actually field more
tech support calls from people installing our
whole-house entertainment systems (Russound,
Xantech, etc.) than commercial fire alarms.

> There is almost always an item that comes up
> that you need tech support to help you through. If you have not had training the factory won't
> talk to you in most cases...

When my clients need help they speak to me.  If
I don't know the answer I call tech support.

> Going after it with only the manual in hand is
> really putting yourself out on a limb unnecessarily.
> It might be penny wise but pound foolish to
> attempt a DIY job beyond a certain size or in
> certain jurisdictions...

That all depends on the scope of the job and the
jurisdiction in question.  Most of our DIY clients
are doing systems with less than 150 points.  A
few exceed that but they generally have a tech
on hand.

> What you save in one hand you'll spend in the
> other...

That sounds good but when the savings are in
the thousands of dollars -- sometimes tens of
thousands -- it's well worth spending the time to
DIY.  It isn't for everybody, mind you, but most
people with a modicum of tool skills and a bit of
patience can get it right.

> The annual inspection process that must be
> followed after the installation and the monitoring
> etc, etc. would just add more layers of potential
> hassles...

Not at all.  Where it is required the company can
either hire a local alarm company or pay an in-
house electrician to do the inspections.  Local
alarm companies are usually delighted to get the
added revenue without having to honor a warranty.

> Eventually even the most dedicated DIY would
> throw in the towel once a system of  a certain
> size is reached.

If the system is too big to handle, agreed.  Most
are not though.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

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Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
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