Re: Recomendation for reliable inexpensive monitoring service.

["FIRETEK" <firetech(change-the-ch-to-k)@telus.net>]

Once again into the breach...


"Robert L Bass" <robertbass1@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:LaudnSTU3s-KgSjYnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> As for tools, most of the time all
> >> you need is a simple meter, a
> >> manual and a screwdriver.
> >
> > Sure.  And the ability to use them
> > properly.
>
> Oh, yes.  Those screwdrivers can be
> mighty confusing. [snerk]

The post I was replying to mentioned "meter".  I guess you missed that.


>
> > Sure.  In about "two hours" worth of
> > "personal telephone education", right?
>
> Is that how long it took for you to learn
> how to use a screwdriver?

Yeah,  I admit those Phillips head screws you guys down south love so much
are a challenge.


>
> >> Many times end users have posted right
> >> here in this newsgroup how they've
> >> waited weeks for their alarm company to
> >> service the alarm
> >
> > And ain't it amazing how "quick" you are on
> > the "draw" to "volunteer" your "service".
>
> I should wait?  Actually, I usually wait a few
> hours while the idiots insult the end user
> before offering help.  It makes it all the easier
> for the user to see who's who in ASA.  You
> guys are so helpful.  Thanks.

I don't see any idiots here, let alone ones that insult the OP.


>
> > So because "others gouge the customer
> > at every opportunity", all alarm dealers
> > are bad.  Interesting "logic"...
>
> You're lying again.

I have you for a role model.

>  I never said that

That's the way I read it though.  I guess both of us have a problem reading.
By the way:  why snip the part about the fake gun?  That was genuinely
funny.  Frank actually called me to say so.


> >> By opting to DIY the client can save
> >> most of the cost.  With a little coaching,
> >> some common sense and a few simple
> >> tools he can also get the job done before
> >> the alarm company technician ever
> >> arrives.
> >
> > I'd like to see a DIY try and troubleshoot
> > a fire alarm system...
>
> Troubleshoot one?  Heck, I have numerous
> DIY clients installing and maintaining them.
> The wiring, hookup and programming are
> no more difficult than with burglar alarms.
> One part that most DIYers need help with
> is planning the power supply and battery
> calc's.  Fortunately, many manufacturers
> provide spreadsheets or downloadable
> software for the purpose.  Some even provide
> a downloadable configuration app to help
> DIYers (and salesmen) determine the proper
> hardware for the job.

Do you frequently break up people's posts to make some small points?  If you
take a look at what I actually wrote, you'll notice I wasn't refering to
just any fire alarm system, but an Edwards 8500.  But do go on.  Your
stories of DIY are positively fascinating.  I could read them all day long.


>
> > Something like an Edwards 8500 with full
> > evac, about 102 zones and 21 dual zone
> > amplifiers...
>
> Most fire alarms are smaller jobs than that.
> However, I have sold a fair number of large,
> addressable systems to DIYers.  Once you
> read the manual it's not all that complicated.

Heh...  right...  You've obviously never _seen_ and 8500 let alone worked on
one.


>
> I also sell EVAX systems.

Is that what they call them in the US?  Up here they're "EVAC's".  That's
short for "Evacuation".

>  Not that many
> DIYers opt to install them but a few have.

Sure they have.


> Some of my DIY clients also install their
> own access control systems.

Of course they do.


>
> > Oh...  let's throw in a couple of ESAC's
> > as well as elevator homing, and
> > pressurization turbines for the stairwells.
>
> The typical alarm dealer would have no
> idea how to do that either.

Bingo!  It's taken five separations (and an equal number of your rambling
dissertations on DIY expertise) to finally get you to admit the DIY would be
in way over his head in this instance.


>
> >> What cloud are you living on?  Most
> >> alarm parts are shipped from stock.
> >
> > I have no doubt that they are.  But
> > surely you don't "stock" anything.
>
> You alrready know that I have everything
> drop-shipped from the distributors and
> manufacturers with whom I do business.
> Knowing they stock it and they ship it,
> your assertion that it will take weeks is
> deliberate bullshit.  IOW, you lie.

Having had to wait "weeks" for certain fire alarm parts (Edwards 6500 for
instance), as well as some replacement chips for a Keyscan system I figured
I wasn't far off the mark.  A liar calling someone else a liar isn't worth
the pixels it's printed on, by the way.


>
> >> We can usually get even a UPS
> >> ground shipment to the client
> >> in one to three days.
> >
> > And a service technician can be
> > dispatched in 1 to 3 hours (and usually is).
>
> Some firms dispatch right away. Some don't.

Yeah...  It takes 3 hours at the most.


> The problem, once again, is that the end
> user has no way ogf knowing whether the
> local dealer is fast, efficient and honest or you.

Or the online vendor is "fast, efficient, and honest or you".


>
> >> If they order before 2:pm on a weekday
> >> and they want it shipped overnight they
> >> can have the component the next morning.
> >
> > About 24 hours after the tech has
> > been there and fixed the problem.
>
> Not if he needs a part that's not on the truck.

That just needs a quick trip to the local supplier.  Add an extra two hours.


>
> >>  This isn't unusual either.  Most online
> >> dealers can easily run circles around
> >> the average local, independent dealer.
> >
> > That would be difficult for _you_ to prove.
> > How many of your customers have tried
> > contacting you and wound up filing
> > complaints here...
>
> Filing complaints in Usenet?  Are you
> really that stupid?

Never-the-less, I've seen them post complaints here.


>
> > ... and at the BBB?
>
> Those are mostly fakes from Olson and
> Cracker.

And that's an outright lie, Bass.  You damn well know the procedures
involved in filing a complaint with the BBB and what they require from both
the complainant and you.  In fact, you've had dozens of complaints to deal
with over the years.  The count keeps changing upward even though some of
the older ones have aged off the system.


>  I've had maybe five legitimate
> complaints where I screwed something
> up in all the years I've run an online store.

That's not what the report says, and you know it.


> Then again, we process 30-40 sales a
> day, 7 days a week.  You try handling that
> many jobs without an occasional jiminex
> -up.  Face it.  Olson happens.  :^)

Yeah...  and I suppose online stores with the BBB online seal that do four
times the business you do field the same number of complaints...  Sure...


>
> >> Part of the reason for that is
> >> companies like mine have far
> >> greater purchasing power than
> >> most locals.
> >
> > Not knowing your "operation" I won't
> > comment on your "purchasing power".
> > I do see you "power huffing and
> > puffing" a lot though.
>
> You've never seen me doing anything.

I've seen you lie.  Right here in this thread.  Shame on you!


> However, several others have posted
> that they found out from their distributor
> that we're a major account.

Really?  When was that?

>  It's no big
> deal really.  I offer better prices than
> most so I sell more hardware.  That
> means I order more, which gets me
> better costs.  And so it goes.

Would you like cheese on your fish?


>
> >> If it requires warranty service the
> >> client will have to wait the exact
> > same time no matter who does the
> >> job.
> >
> > Wrong.  Most good alarm dealers
> > settle on a single product line...
>
> So do the bad ones.

I don't see many "bad" ones.  Their phone numbers don't work, for one thing.


>
> > This makes servicing their systems
> > very much easier...
>
> Warranty replacement is still the same.
> Either you swap it out with an advance
> replacement (just as we do) if it's within
> 30 days or you send it into the factory.

So how much does this "advance replacement" cost?  In terms of actual
charges to your customer (shipping, etc.).


> If you do that you wait the same trime
> as wwe do for a replacement.  If you
> were smart you'd keep a few refurbished
> units around for warranty replacement.

I can't sell "refurbished" parts on a fire alarm system.  That would be
illegal.  ULC doesn't allow board level repairs except for the actual
manufacturer.


>
> > It also makes stocking replacement
> > parts _in the service vehicle_ a "snap"...
>
> Except for all those times when the
> customer has something fail that doesn't
> happen to be in the van.

Oh, come off it.  On a burg system?  Spare boards are cheap.

> Don't kid
> yourself, Bug.  I've run an alarm company
> for many years and I know what happens
> better than you think.

Yeah, sure.  I guess I must be really starting to "bug" you, eh?


>
> > If it's a "board problem", they simply
> > swap it out and download the sucker.
> > Heck, even the user codes are fully
> > restored...
>
> Neat trick if it's a bad board.  You have
> every tech keep a complete copy of all
> accounts?

Nope.  They're downloaded from the office.

>  God help your vict... er,
> customers when your next tech decides
> to do a little "side work" like that turkey
> from S Windsor did a few years ago.

They can't.  They have to phone the office for the password for each panel.
There isn't a "common one" like most alarm companies use.  They also turn in
their laptops at the end of the day (except for the guy "on call").


>
> >> Some manufacturers are quick to
> >> turn things around.  Others are not.
> >> However, there's no difference in
> >> their responsiveness between one
> >> dealer and the next.
> >
> > Frank said your eyes are "brown".  :)
>
> That kind of remark is your substitute for
> logic when you know I'm right.

You've made quite a few "substitutes for logical remarks" here too, haven't
you?  You've also been caught in a blatant LIE.


>
> >> Also, some distributors maintain a
> >> stock of refurbished parts for warranty
> >> work.  When a panel comes in it is
> >> sent to the manufacturer for repair and
> >> a replacement is shipped immediately.
> >> When the other unit comes back it
> >> goes on the shelf for the next warranty
> >> call.  The advantage here is that the
> >> replacement part can often be shipped
> >> immediately as an advance replacement.
> >> Many distributors do that for anything
> >> that is past the 30-day over-the-counter
> > replacement policy.
> >
> > So let me get this straight.  I order a part...
>
> Nope.  We would never accept your credit
> card.

Heh...  right...  You're such an "eager beaver" you'ld jump your pool to
take an order (from anyone).  If it happened to be from someone in this
group, you'd go "ga-ga" with glee.


>
> > it's defective.  Your warranty page states
> > that the part must be returned (at my cost)
> > to the "depot" that shipped it (not to you)...
>
> If it's bad out of the box we send an advance
> replacement and call tag it at no cost to the
> customer.

You've just answered my earlier question.

>  If it's been in service for more than
> 30 days the customer sends it to the return
> address which I provide.

Uh-huh...  and??  Does he get an "advance replacement" too?  Or is this
closer to the scenario I outlined earlier?


>
> > _after_ I contact you to get an "RMA"
> > number...
>
> Actually, only one of our distributors requires
> an RMA. The rest take the part back  directly
> as long as they know it's from us.  I have the
> RMA statement so that clients will let us know
> what they're returning and why.

I see.  So you "lie" in your directions too...  typical.


>
> > (the latter process might take days or
> > weeks according to what I've seen
> > posted about your "communication problems").
>
> That's old hat, Bug.  We now have three
> people on the phones and our eMail works well.

Bully for you.


>
> > It must then be examined, and at the
> > depot's discretion a replacement part is
> > returned...
>
> If it's within 30 days the replacement arrives
> at the client's address before we even see
> the bad part.

And after 30 days??  What??  The part disappears into the "ether" of some
drop shippers warehouse where it will be dealt with "sometime".  Meanwhile,
the customer has a system that's out of service.


>
> > If that "part" happens to be the common
> > control board for say... a FireLite fire alarm
> > panel, then I would have to pay for a 24
> > hour security fire watch for how many days
> > before I got a replacement board?
>
> I don't do business with you so that's your
> problem.  Serves you right for screwing up the
> installation in the first place.  Next time
> try doing the job right.

Frank warned me about you.  Are you going to answer the question or just let
this example of your "logic" stand for all eternity?


>
> > Let's say it was my burg panel's common
> > control.  I pay to have the board sent back
> > "overnight".  It takes about a day for some
> > schmuck in the warehouse to find the thing
> > and bring it up to someone that will say:
> >  "Yep, it's defective, send him a new one".
>
> By that time my DIY client's system would
> already be up and running.  Sorry to hear
> about the delays your vict... customers suffer.

Snip, cut, and mix.  It doesn't get any more "logical" than this.


>
> > some depots won't accept parts returned
> > from an end-user or that were installed by
> > an end-user.
>
> Dream on, Boug.

Is that a cross between "Doug" and "Bug"?  Or have I made a "hit" pretty
darn close to the mark?


>
> > So much for DIY.
>
> And yet my online business continues to grow.

So does your BBB report.  Is that based on some sort of mathematical
formula?  One to one?  Two to one??


>
> >> If the job is DIY the part ships directly
> >> to the customer the same day the
> >> problem is discovered.
> >
> > Not according to your "warranty" page.
>
> It's better to give more than you promise
> than the other way around.  Since some
> manufacturers don't do advance replacement
> I don't promise it.

You don't even mention it.


>
> >> If the alarm company is in the middle
> >> of this the client has to wait for a tech
> >> to come out, diagnose the trouble and
> >> remove the component.  Then he has
> >> to wait for the alarm company to order
> >> the replacement part.  Then he waits
> >> for them to get it from the distributor.
> >> Then he waits for the alarm company
> >> to send a technician back to reinstall
> >> the replacement part.  Meanwhile the
> >> DIYer has had his system working for
> >> anywhere from several days to several
> >> weeks while the dealer's customer is
> >> still waiting.
> >
> > I figure Frank's right.  Your eyes are "brown".
>
> I figure you can't debate intelligently.

I've gotta come down to your level to do that.  It hurts my brain.


>
> > Replacement is immediate.  So is the
> > programming.
>
> And yet we get calls every day from
> distraught customers of local dealers
> who have left them hanging for weeks
> on end.

More fairly tales.  You're "good", Bass.


>
> >> Roll the dice and hope the tech
> >> they send actually is familiar with
> >> the system.
> >
> > Use the company that installed it and
> > they not only will be familiar with the
> > system, they'll carry all the spare
> > parts they need to fix it.
>
> And yet... [see above]

Check.  The fuzzy dice in our vans don't roll.  They jiggle.


>
> >> That's absurd.  Maybe one AHJ in
> >> 10,000 even gives a rat's olson which
> >> monitoring company is involved.
> >
> > It would behoove the customer to
> > check first don't you think?
>
> If they want it monitored by an out of
> state firm they can ask the provider if
> they are currently handling accounts
> in their location.  Most AHJ's if asked
> which monitoring service they
> "require," will answer about a burglar
> alarm system: "We don't care if it's
> monitored at all."

Until they try dispatching the local constabulary.


>
> BTW, since all but a small portion of
> DIYers don't even want monitoring,
> the whole question is moot.

So in the six years your business has been operating the total number of
monitored accounts you sold was...  "6"?


>
> > You're always so good with dispensing
> > advice.
>
> Thanks.  Recognition at last.  :^)

In spades.


>
> > Why are you ignoring this simple basic "first step"?
>
> If it were relevent I'd suggest it.

Yes, I imagine you would.


>
> >> In 30 years in the trade I have yet to see
> >> one single AHJ ask which central station
> >> was monitoring a system.
> >
> > How many jurisdictions have you worked in?
>
> You already know I worked throughout
> Connecticut or 24 years.  I dealt with
> AHJ's in scores of cities and towns.
> None even asked where the CS was.

Check "scores".  You write a lot of your own music don't you?  Does it have
a samba beat, or is it more "Bass-anova"?


>
> >> They are concerned with how the system
> >> is wired and (if there's fire alarm involved)
> >> whether the installation meets minima.
> >> They never care who is doing the monitoring
> >> and they especially don't care whether it's
> >> UL station five states away or another
> >> UL station in the same town.
> >
> > When it comes to my "neck of the woods"
> > (fire alarms), they're also concerned about
> > whether it was "wired", "installed", and
> > "serviced" by a qualified contractor...
>
> They care if it's done right.

That's a forgone conclusion if the qualified contractor wants to retain his
licensing (and get paid).


> Sadly, too many paid "professional"
> installers don't do it right.

Not _one_ in my neck of the woods.

>  With very
> few exceptions, if the owner of a
> property wants to DIY his fire alarm
> the law permits him to do so.

Har-dee-har!...   That's about all you know, isn't it?  You can't "DIY" a
fire alarm system in BC, Bass.  I'll bet you can't do so in a lot of
jurisdictions.  But, I do like your music.

> The
> exceptions are specifically written
> into the law.

Check.  "The exceptions" include "fire alarms".

>  For example, if I want
> to wire up my own shop which I intend
> to keep and use for my own business
> there's no problem.

There is if it requires third party commissioning.  In Canada, we call that
"Verification".

> However, if I plan
> to sell the building without occupying
> it myself, the work is considered
> "contracting" and requires a license.

And your point is??


>
> There's an interesting special case on
> this subject, BTW.  In many states
> someone building a single family home
> on spec can do his own work without
> a license.  Since that's not universal I
> advise clients to check first or let an
> electrician pull the cables, permits, etc.

You dispense a lot of "advice", don't you??  Do you also design systems?


>
> If it's a fire alarm I recommend an
> electrician over most independent
> alarm dealers because too many
> dealers don't do neat enough work
> to pass inspection.

And your point is??


>
> >> Yeah, right.  Most AHJ's, police and fire
> >> departments refuse to recommend anyone
> >> at all.  Doing so would be unethical (not
> >> that that would bother some folks here).
> >
> > I never said they'd "recommend" any particular
> > dealer.  I simply stated that some may not
> > accept out of state/province monitoring.
>
> Indeed you did.

Which (if we were to use your definition of the term) means you lied...
again.


>  That "some" so far amounts
> to one town in CA and they're being sued by
> a bunch of alarm associations who hate
> losing the recurring revenue.  It will be
> interesting to see how that turns out.

No, actually.  It means that the the alarm association and the companies
_won_, Bass.  "With Prejudice".


>
> >> That's yet another red herring.
> >
> > And you do a lot of "trolling" and
> > your last name is Bass.
>
> I got over being bothered by fifth grade
> insults about the time most children
> grew out of making such dumb cracks.
> Clearly you've not yet outgrown it.

Like I said earlier...  I've had to respond at your level which you're
saying is now "fifth grade"?  My brain really hurts.