Re: Recomendation for reliable inexpensive monitoring service.

["Robert L Bass" <robertbass1@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

>> As for tools, most of the time all
>> you need is a simple meter, a
>> manual and a screwdriver.
>
> Sure.  And the ability to use them
> properly.

Oh, yes.  Those screwdrivers can be
mighty confusing. [snerk]

> Sure.  In about "two hours" worth of
> "personal telephone education", right?

Is that how long it took for you to learn
how to use a screwdriver?

>> Many times end users have posted right
>> here in this newsgroup how they've
>> waited weeks for their alarm company to
>> service the alarm
>
> And ain't it amazing how "quick" you are on
> the "draw" to "volunteer" your "service".

I should wait?  Actually, I usually wait a few
hours while the idiots insult the end user
before offering help.  It makes it all the easier
for the user to see who's who in ASA.  You
guys are so helpful.  Thanks.

> So because "others gouge the customer
> at every opportunity", all alarm dealers
> are bad.  Interesting "logic"...

You're lying again.  I never said that and you
know it.  In fact I've often said that most
dealers are probably honest.  Unfortunately,
the customer won't know if he has selected
an honest dealer or you until it's too late.

>> By opting to DIY the client can save
>> most of the cost.  With a little coaching,
>> some common sense and a few simple
>> tools he can also get the job done before
>> the alarm company technician ever
>> arrives.
>
> I'd like to see a DIY try and troubleshoot
> a fire alarm system...

Troubleshoot one?  Heck, I have numerous
DIY clients installing and maintaining them.
The wiring, hookup and programming are
no more difficult than with burglar alarms.
One part that most DIYers need help with
is planning the power supply and battery
calc's.  Fortunately, many manufacturers
provide spreadsheets or downloadable
software for the purpose.  Some even provide
a downloadable configuration app to help
DIYers (and salesmen) determine the proper
hardware for the job.

> Something like an Edwards 8500 with full
> evac, about 102 zones and 21 dual zone
> amplifiers...

Most fire alarms are smaller jobs than that.
However, I have sold a fair number of large,
addressable systems to DIYers.  Once you
read the manual it's not all that complicated.

I also sell EVAX systems.  Not that many
DIYers opt to install them but a few have.
Some of my DIY clients also install their
own access control systems.

> Oh...  let's throw in a couple of ESAC's
> as well as elevator homing, and
> pressurization turbines for the stairwells.

The typical alarm dealer would have no
idea how to do that either.

>> What cloud are you living on?  Most
>> alarm parts are shipped from stock.
>
> I have no doubt that they are.  But
> surely you don't "stock" anything.

You alrready know that I have everything
drop-shipped from the distributors and
manufacturers with whom I do business.
Knowing they stock it and they ship it,
your assertion that it will take weeks is
deliberate bullshit.  IOW, you lie.

>> We can usually get even a UPS
>> ground shipment to the client
>> in one to three days.
>
> And a service technician can be
> dispatched in 1 to 3 hours (and usually is).

Some firms dispatch right away. Some don't.
The problem, once again, is that the end
user has no way ogf knowing whether the
local dealer is fast, efficient and honest or you.

>> If they order before 2:pm on a weekday
>> and they want it shipped overnight they
>> can have the component the next morning.
>
> About 24 hours after the tech has
> been there and fixed the problem.

Not if he needs a part that's not on the truck.

>>  This isn't unusual either.  Most online
>> dealers can easily run circles around
>> the average local, independent dealer.
>
> That would be difficult for _you_ to prove.
> How many of your customers have tried
> contacting you and wound up filing
> complaints here...

Filing complaints in Usenet?  Are you
really that stupid?

> ... and at the BBB?

Those are mostly fakes from Olson and
Cracker.  I've had maybe five legitimate
complaints where I screwed something
up in all the years I've run an online store.
Then again, we process 30-40 sales a
day, 7 days a week.  You try handling that
many jobs without an occasional jiminex
-up.  Face it.  Olson happens.  :^)

>> Part of the reason for that is
>> companies like mine have far
>> greater purchasing power than
>> most locals.
>
> Not knowing your "operation" I won't
> comment on your "purchasing power".
> I do see you "power huffing and
> puffing" a lot though.

You've never seen me doing anything.
However, several others have posted
that they found out from their distributor
that we're a major account.  It's no big
deal really.  I offer better prices than
most so I sell more hardware.  That
means I order more, which gets me
better costs.  And so it goes.

>> If it requires warranty service the
>> client will have to wait the exact
> same time no matter who does the
>> job.
>
> Wrong.  Most good alarm dealers
> settle on a single product line...

So do the bad ones.

> This makes servicing their systems
> very much easier...

Warranty replacement is still the same.
Either you swap it out with an advance
replacement (just as we do) if it's within
30 days or you send it into the factory.
If you do that you wait the same trime
as wwe do for a replacement.  If you
were smart you'd keep a few refurbished
units around for warranty replacement.

> It also makes stocking replacement
> parts _in the service vehicle_ a "snap"...

Except for all those times when the
customer has something fail that doesn't
happen to be in the van.  Don't kid
yourself, Bug.  I've run an alarm company
for many years and I know what happens
better than you think.

> If it's a "board problem", they simply
> swap it out and download the sucker.
> Heck, even the user codes are fully
> restored...

Neat trick if it's a bad board.  You have
every tech keep a complete copy of all
accounts?  God help your vict... er,
customers when your next tech decides
to do a little "side work" like that turkey
from S Windsor did a few years ago.

>> Some manufacturers are quick to
>> turn things around.  Others are not.
>> However, there's no difference in
>> their responsiveness between one
>> dealer and the next.
>
> Frank said your eyes are "brown".  :)

That kind of remark is your substitute for
logic when you know I'm right.

>> Also, some distributors maintain a
>> stock of refurbished parts for warranty
>> work.  When a panel comes in it is
>> sent to the manufacturer for repair and
>> a replacement is shipped immediately.
>> When the other unit comes back it
>> goes on the shelf for the next warranty
>> call.  The advantage here is that the
>> replacement part can often be shipped
>> immediately as an advance replacement.
>> Many distributors do that for anything
>> that is past the 30-day over-the-counter
> replacement policy.
>
> So let me get this straight.  I order a part...

Nope.  We would never accept your credit
card.

> it's defective.  Your warranty page states
> that the part must be returned (at my cost)
> to the "depot" that shipped it (not to you)...

If it's bad out of the box we send an advance
replacement and call tag it at no cost to the
customer.  If it's been in service for more than
30 days the customer sends it to the return
address which I provide.

> _after_ I contact you to get an "RMA"
> number...

Actually, only one of our distributors requires
an RMA. The rest take the part back  directly
as long as they know it's from us.  I have the
RMA statement so that clients will let us know
what they're returning and why.

> (the latter process might take days or
> weeks according to what I've seen
> posted about your "communication problems").

That's old hat, Bug.  We now have three
people on the phones and our eMail works well.

> It must then be examined, and at the
> depot's discretion a replacement part is
> returned...

If it's within 30 days the replacement arrives
at the client's address before we even see
the bad part.

> If that "part" happens to be the common
> control board for say... a FireLite fire alarm
> panel, then I would have to pay for a 24
> hour security fire watch for how many days
> before I got a replacement board?

I don't do business with you so that's your
problem.  Serves you right for screwing up the
installation in the first place.  Next time
try doing the job right.

> Let's say it was my burg panel's common
> control.  I pay to have the board sent back
> "overnight".  It takes about a day for some
> schmuck in the warehouse to find the thing
> and bring it up to someone that will say:
>  "Yep, it's defective, send him a new one".

By that time my DIY client's system would
already be up and running.  Sorry to hear
about the delays your vict... customers suffer.

> some depots won't accept parts returned
> from an end-user or that were installed by
> an end-user.

Dream on, Boug.

> So much for DIY.

And yet my online business continues to grow.

>> If the job is DIY the part ships directly
>> to the customer the same day the
>> problem is discovered.
>
> Not according to your "warranty" page.

It's better to give more than you promise
than the other way around.  Since some
manufacturers don't do advance replacement
I don't promise it.

>> If the alarm company is in the middle
>> of this the client has to wait for a tech
>> to come out, diagnose the trouble and
>> remove the component.  Then he has
>> to wait for the alarm company to order
>> the replacement part.  Then he waits
>> for them to get it from the distributor.
>> Then he waits for the alarm company
>> to send a technician back to reinstall
>> the replacement part.  Meanwhile the
>> DIYer has had his system working for
>> anywhere from several days to several
>> weeks while the dealer's customer is
>> still waiting.
>
> I figure Frank's right.  Your eyes are "brown".

I figure you can't debate intelligently.

> Replacement is immediate.  So is the
> programming.

And yet we get calls every day from
distraught customers of local dealers
who have left them hanging for weeks
on end.

>> Roll the dice and hope the tech
>> they send actually is familiar with
>> the system.
>
> Use the company that installed it and
> they not only will be familiar with the
> system, they'll carry all the spare
> parts they need to fix it.

And yet... [see above]

>> That's absurd.  Maybe one AHJ in
>> 10,000 even gives a rat's olson which
>> monitoring company is involved.
>
> It would behoove the customer to
> check first don't you think?

If they want it monitored by an out of
state firm they can ask the provider if
they are currently handling accounts
in their location.  Most AHJ's if asked
which monitoring service they
"require," will answer about a burglar
alarm system: "We don't care if it's
monitored at all."

BTW, since all but a small portion of
DIYers don't even want monitoring,
the whole question is moot.

> You're always so good with dispensing
> advice.

Thanks.  Recognition at last.  :^)

> Why are you ignoring this simple basic "first step"?

If it were relevent I'd suggest it.

>> In 30 years in the trade I have yet to see
>> one single AHJ ask which central station
>> was monitoring a system.
>
> How many jurisdictions have you worked in?

You already know I worked throughout
Connecticut or 24 years.  I dealt with
AHJ's in scores of cities and towns.
None even asked where the CS was.

>> They are concerned with how the system
>> is wired and (if there's fire alarm involved)
>> whether the installation meets minima.
>> They never care who is doing the monitoring
>> and they especially don't care whether it's
>> UL station five states away or another
>> UL station in the same town.
>
> When it comes to my "neck of the woods"
> (fire alarms), they're also concerned about
> whether it was "wired", "installed", and
> "serviced" by a qualified contractor...

Bullshit!  They care if it's done right.
Sadly, too many paid "professional"
installers don't do it right.  With very
few exceptions, if the owner of a
property wants to DIY his fire alarm
the law permits him to do so.  The
exceptions are specifically written
into the law.  For example, if I want
to wire up my own shop which I intend
to keep and use for my own business
there's no problem.  However, if I plan
to sell the building without occupying
it myself, the work is considered
"contracting" and requires a license.

There's an interesting special case on
this subject, BTW.  In many states
someone building a single family home
on spec can do his own work without
a license.  Since that's not universal I
advise clients to check first or let an
electrician pull the cables, permits, etc.

If it's a fire alarm I recommend an
electrician over most independent
alarm dealers because too many
dealers don't do neat enough work
to pass inspection.

>> Yeah, right.  Most AHJ's, police and fire
>> departments refuse to recommend anyone
>> at all.  Doing so would be unethical (not
>> that that would bother some folks here).
>
> I never said they'd "recommend" any particular
> dealer.  I simply stated that some may not
> accept out of state/province monitoring.

Indeed you did.  That "some" so far amounts
to one town in CA and they're being sued by
a bunch of alarm associations who hate
losing the recurring revenue.  It will be
interesting to see how that turns out.

>> That's yet another red herring.
>
> And you do a lot of "trolling" and
> your last name is Bass.

I got over being bothered by fifth grade
insults about the time most children
grew out of making such dumb cracks.
Clearly you've not yet outgrown it.

>> Where there's an ordinance it is
>> incumbent upon the alarm user to
>> register his alarm.
>
> In Vancouver the "ordinance" goes a
> bit further.  It requires the name and
> license number of the installing/servicing
> technician.  So much for "DIY".

I don't care about Canada.  However, many similar ordinances exist in US cities and towns.  There the DIYer simply fills in his own
name.  No license is required.

>> There is also a growing trend toward
>> issuing fines for an inordinate number
>> offalse alarms.
>
> In Vancouver, a false alarm requires the
> attendance of a licensed technician
> to verify all components in the alarm
> system are functional and to investigate
> any possible causes for the false alarm...

Again, I don't care about Canada.  In the USA anywhere that the installer is required to do something, the DIYer does it.

> After the third false alarm, the system
> is suspended from priority response
> until a qualified alarm tech signs off on
> the installation.

We have similar rules in a few places in the USA too.  If the job is DIY the homeowner is the accepted substitute.

> This usually means installing upgraded
> equipment and might entail additional
> wiring to "cross-zone"...

That's your fault.  If you'd done the job right in the first place you wouldn't have these problems.

> A client of mine had to go through this
> exercise a few weeks ago...

He should really consider getting another alarm company.  If he was in the US I'd be happy to refer him to someone competent.

> They're a local property management firm
> with offices in a building we service the
> fire alarm on.

Poor fellows.  I feel for them.

>> Alarm dealers know about that because
>> the systems they install false 98% of the
>> time, causing police, fire departments and
>> AHJ's in many cities to ask their councils
>> to write ordinances allowing them to ignore
>> the systems.
>
> I just love watching you in action...

Careful.  Jiminex will get jealous.

> You should really sell tickets.  Where
> the hell do you get these statistics /
> information from?

The NBFAA.  Perhaps you've heard of them.

> Oh wait, I forget. You make them up.

You're confusing me with Olson.

> Not having knowledge of your particular
> operation I can't comment one way or
> another...

Oh, don't let a little thing like knowing
nothing stop you.  It never did before.

> I know you won't meet the qualifications
> for fire alarm monitoring in the City of
> Vancouver with a non-listed central...

Since I sold the business I don't monitor
anything any more.  Besides, I never was
interested in Canada.  Unlike Olson, I
registered for the draft and showed up
when called.

> As to your "good reputation", I've read
> otherwise...

You've read comments from people who
don't know me.

> Or was Tom just pulling our collective
> legs?

He was pulling your leg.  In CT I had a
reputation for winning by beating the
competition on price, service and quality.
A few idiot competitors used to bad-
mouth but they could never beat me.
It's the same here.  I beat the competition
on price and service.  You and your
moron pals bad-mouth and make stupid
schoolyard remarks but my business just
keeps growing.

Do you think you'll make this newsgroup
better by contributing more vitriol?  You're
sure as Waco never going to get me to
stop posting.  Perhaps, like Jiminex, you
don't give an olson what the NG becomes.
That's OK with me.  I have pretty thick
skin and can easily match wits with you.
It isn't exactly rocket science.  :^)

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

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Bass Home Electronics
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4883 Fallcrest Circle
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http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
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