Re: OT: Physicians for a National Health Program

[Frank Olson <use_the_email_links@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

JoeRaisin wrote:
> Jim wrote:
>> On Dec 17, 2:49�pm, JoeRaisin <joerai...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> Which means, that the person who is being interrogated can anticipate
>>>> it being repeated if they don't tell the truth. Which says, that if
>>>> they've got any sense at all, they'll tell the truth the first time
>>>> around.
>>>> Sounds pretty humane to me.
>>> My point was about the person who does not have the information the
>>> interrogator is looking for. �At what point do you decide that the
>>> person just doesn't know.-
>>
>> It really doesn't matter ..... does it?
>> I mean, if the guy was a good guy to begin with, he wouldn't be in the
>> position that he's in.

During the French Revolution, the Committee for Public Safety thought
very much like you do...  It eventually lead to "trials" that lasted
less than fifteen minutes and pretty well guaranteed a death sentence.
They were guillotining children under the age of four for Christ sake!
Our system of justice (while flawed I grant you) presumes innocence
until proven guilty.  This isn't a "witch hunt", Jim, and to my way of
thinking (as a Christian as well as a guy who's pretty well voted
"Conservative" all of his life) you can't paint everyone with the same
brush.  A Muslim is not a Jihadist Extremist.  All "brown people" aren't
Muslims.

America went into Iraq illegally.  You haven't found a single WMD.  You
simply can't invade a sovereign state let alone do so on some made up
charge.  It's no different than what Hitler did in the Sudetenland,
Poland, and Austria.  Iraq under Hussein was a terrible place to live if
you weren't the "right kind" of Muslim.  You've left a legacy of pain
and suffering that overshadows everything these people have been through
before and the presence of your military only heightens their fear and
loathing.  You also have to remember that they think differently than we
do.  This combination will serve to negate any "good works" you do.


>> He may or may not know specifically what the
>> interrogators are looking for but he's going to spill whatever it is
>> he does know and if he doesn't know what they want to know, it won't
>> damage him permanently ........ as compared to the beating him or or
>> putting burning matches under his fingernails or electrodes attached
>> to his scrotum.
>> It ......STILL sounds pretty ok with me.

"Torture" is torture.  It's unconstitutional.  You have to lead by
example.  You have to act honourably and with respect.  Justice at the
end of a cannon isn't justice and it's damned difficult to call it a
"liberation".


>>
>> If they waterboard 10 people and no one gives any good
>> information ....send them back to the stockade and wait for a day or
>> so, for the description of what happened to get around and then take
>> 10 new ones. You'll see how many start to "remember" things. The
>> threat of a dire circumstance is more powerfull than the actual
>> event ...........I'll bet.
>>
>> Seems like if information is vital and we can get it by this technique
>> rather than maming and harming someone permanently it should
>> acceptable. Hey .... this is war ...... remember!

With whom are you "at war" with?  How many innocent people are you going
to "waterboard" and how do you determine their innocence if they will
confess to anything you ask just to make it stop?


>> Remember 9/11?

I do.  I also notice that many websites have removed the memorial
ribbon.  A good friend of mine perished in the WTC.  He worked for an
insurance brokerage.


>> I don't remember any Islamist protesting that killing 3000 innocent
>> people might just be a little .....errrr too much.

But many did.  Many were horrified by what happened.  How many innocent
"Islamists" were on board the fatal flights (or in the buildings)?  This
was an act of terrorism perpetrated by people that had more than a few
screws loose.  We allowed them into the country and we trained them to
fly those jets.  No one raised the alarm when the idiots responsible
made it clear they didn't want to follow the normal course of
instruction.  We *KNEW* there was a risk that a terrorist could
commandeer an aircraft and turn it into a manned missile and we did
*NOTHING*.  The traveling public would have rigorously protested the
presence of "Sky Marshalls" before 911.  It was unthinkable to any of us
that a reasonable person would even contemplate doing something like this.


>>
>> Remember the people they televised as their heads where removed?
>> I don't remember anyone stopping these people and protesting that
>> maybe they should just chop off a finger.

How do you "stop" someone from doing this?  How do you stop someone like
"Robert Pickton", "Bill Gacy", "Charles Manson"?  Timothy McVeigh?


>>
>> We've got to get out of this mode where we think that if we treat our
>> enemies humanely that they'll like us better.

Who's the "enemy"?  How do you positively identify them?


>> Or that  someone else
>> will like us better. Or that "we're better than that" Our enemies
>> DON'T CARE if we're better than or worse than whatever!

No, but we can make "more enemies" quite easily.  You can't eliminate
terrorism.  The Israelis have tried for years.  It's a clash of
philosophies that's responsible for this.  That and the feeling of total
helplessness.  Pull out of Iraq.  Don't let this turn into another
Vietnam.  Bring our troops home.  These people don't want us (or our
help).  Let's concentrate on improving our own lives.  Spend the
billions of dollars we're spending in Iraq on a NATIONAL HEALTH PROGRAM,
securing our borders, getting rid of the criminal organizations that are
corrupting our children (and killing them).  Let's put our best efforts
into something that *WE* will actually benefit from.