Re: store system w 4-8 cameras ?

["- Bobb -" <bobb@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

"Matt Ion" <soundy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:8SuSg.60314$1T2.23760@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>I don't think you really want something that records direct to DVD...
>besides needing to replace the disc regularly, you'll end up with a big
>stack of discs very quickly, and you'll need to label and file and
>store each one - tracking down a piece of video later can get
>complicated!
>
> Comparing "standalone" DVRs vs. PCs is really pointless... most
> standalone units still record to hard drives, and many are simply
> scaled-down PCs running an embedded OS of some kind.  Their only REAL
> advantage over PCs is cost.

Agreed - so I'll have them use a PC. As for what the end-user wants in
the store ...how about some feedback / experience on this:

I asked how long they plan to keep the info etc and they said that they
don't NEED a live/smooth/lifelike video. They want it to more to watch
kids -live- in the convenience store ( they're near a school) and if
they see stealing they can save that piece of video ( the last minute or
two) as a file to backup to CD/DVD file. On a "normal day" they have no
need to warehouse the video, so as long as they have the last ... 10
minutes of each camera that's fine. It's all family owned so there's no
need to replay the video ( as an owner might if he mistrusted employees/
suspected them of stealing ). I think it's nutty to spend 2-3k if their
only objective is to prevent stealing a $2 candy bar but it's not my
money.  Matt,  could you give me an idea of what the cheapest system
might go for ? To install it all ( 8/16 cameras/wiring etc) ballpark is
fine - is it  ~ $3k or more like 10k ?

I did just check
http://www.demovi.com/videoinsight/Pages/AllCameras.aspx   and that IS
very good. For them I think it's probably way beyond their needs and way
over their budget. Perhaps it might be what they SHOULD have, but I'm
just going by what they have now and their expectations.

>
> Any PC can be VERY reliable, as long as you don't cheap out.  Use a
> server-quality board and RAID-spec hard drive(s) if you're that
> worried about it.

A server ? At this store they have a small form factor 2ghz pc running
XP pro / 6 cameras and they back up to CD nightly. It's a standalone
PC. - no remote access etc . This PC came with the store when they
bought it and the security folks that sold it ( there's a sticker on it)
were useless as far as advice / fixing it when it stopped recording -
which is how I got involved.




> Be sure to provide lots of cooling, especially for the drive(s).  Put
> the OS and software on a separate drive from the video data. RAID is
> fine, but remember if you're using mirroring, you'll need a twice the
> actual drive space. (I find using the smallest available drive,
> usually 80GB these days, for a system drive, I section off one
> partition for the OS and software, the rest for "export" space, and
> save any video of incidents there... then if the main video drive
> dies, that exported video isn't lost).
>
> Keep in mind that as your framerates go up, your data throughput
> capacity must go up as well.  I've built 16-channel, 240fps machines,
> which allows 30fps for every two cameras, but found that even with a
> fairly powerful computer, I've had to keep the frame sizes small
> (320x240) to run at full speed, or the computer will have trouble
> keeping up, and will suffer from dropped frames (it also makes the
> system VERY slow to respond on playback, unless you stop recording
> first). You're probably better to run multiple disks in a striped RAID
> to maximize available throughput; again, if you don't cheap out on the
> drives, they'll be plenty reliable.
>
> Remember that full-motion TV video and film is only 30fps; the
> difference will be barely noticeable even at 15fps, and 1-2fps per
> camera is usually sufficient for surveillance purposes, and allows you
> to use higher image sizes (640x480 or better) and lower compression,
> for better quality.
>
> BTW, if you really need higher quality, there are high-resolution IP
> cameras available (up to 3MP - 640x480 is only about .3MP) that
> connect to the DVR via ethernet rather than analog video... take a
> look at the demos at www.camacc.com

I went there and had security issues. I kept tweaking Windows - Firewall
turned off / security lowest/added site to exceptions and STILL get
signature errors from the site -  so couldn;t run the demo.

>
> The DVRs I build, I use the VideoInsight system (www.videoinsight.net)
>
>
>
> - Bobb - wrote:
>> Thanks for the info so far.
>>
>> If I used a DVR how often to change the DVD ? Every 4/8 hrs ? Is this
>> a "plain old DVR " like I'd get at Circuit City/Best Buy ? How to
>> view something that you suspect just happened - " how to back up ?"
>> and still be recording ?  Would it be one DVR per camera ?
>>
>> Since I posted the question, I've looked online at systems and played
>> a bit with a webcam which generated another question:   Some of the
>> PC systems state that they have 4 cameras, a 100-200gb drive , will
>> record "X" fps (varies) and they'll hold a month's worth of info on
>> the hard drive (and the samples they show look fine). I hooked up a
>> logitech webcam on a pc and the video was so-so. In minute it was a
>> 12mb file - if it takes 12 mb to record a fair image in a minute, how
>> can these systems hold a month's worth of quality video from 4
>> cameras ??  Is it all a matter of the software that comes with the
>> camera system ?  Here's some of the stuff I saw online - any opinions
>> ?
>> http://spyville.com/digital-video-recorder.html
>> http://www.ezwatchstore.com/
>> http://www.stardot-tech.com/express6/order_form.html
>> RapidOS PCI Wireless Digital Surveillance Card
>> http://www.x10.com/cameras/cameras_wired.html
>>
>> Thanks again for any feedback.
>>
>> Bobb
>>
>>
>>
>> "Bob Worthy" <securinc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:oDaSg.13091$vi3.3630@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>>>
>>> "- Bobb -" <bobb@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> news:NIGdnXAD6oUpuoTYnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>
>>>> Have a friend looking to buy a convenience store and would like
>>>> info/recommendations on a pc-based system that would have 4/6/8 ?
>>>> cameras recording to the PC -  in case of  pettty theft/ hold up
>>>> etc .
>>>
>>>
>>> Where PC's ever really meant to be a security tool? There are
>>> inherent
>>> reliability issues with using PC's for recording and storing large
>>> amounts
>>> of video.
>>>
>>>
>>>> He asked me my opinion since I know computers , but other than the
>>>> yellow pages/ google etc I don't know how to research this. Since
>>>> he
>>>> brought it up I realized that I didn't know anything about this and
>>>> looking to learn.
>>>
>>>
>>> Look at DVR's, of which there are many on the market to choose from.
>>> They
>>> have all the neccessary features needed for security applications,
>>> especially if there is prosecution possiblities involved. Recordings
>>> done on
>>> someones PC will not usually be accepted except for some initial
>>> police
>>> investigation.
>>