Re: Help with 7 Circuit Project?

["Brett Griffin" <brett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

> 5 years? It was first announced about 2.5 years ago, first shown about a
> year ago, and has been shipping for only 9 months or so.

Actally, PCS Lighting (who developed UPB technology) bagan alpha testing in
1999, and beta testing in 2003.  Actually they are still testing (because
Marshall, the engineer that discovered the technology in his garage, wants
to be sure there are no errors like X-10 has.)   Products bagan shipping
from PCS lighting in November of 2003, which is now 17 months according to
my watch.

> You are full of it. The loss of signal strength is independent of
> distance.
> There have been numerous studies that confirm this. It's the inductive and
> capacitive loading that attenuates the signal.

What do you think long runs of copper create?  At higher frequencies it
attenuates the signal.  I am a little light on this, I admit.  However I
know that long runs of cable translates into needing more signal strength.
Several manufactures have explained this to me as well.

> Most X-10 transmitters actually transmit 10Vpp at 120kHz. Noise is lowest
> at
> zero crossing.

I am not looking to argue symantics here.  The point I am trying to bring up
is that most manufacturers discuss a 5 volt signal and that is small enough
for noise to mask the signal.  UPB does not have this problem as it
transmits 40 volts above/below the sine wave.

> Your description of a UPB "signal" sounds very much like noise pulses
> which
> are quite common from triacs, motors, ballasts, etc. As I understand it,
> UPB
> generates their pulse by rapidly discharging a capacitor. That sounds like
> a
> noise pulse.

Actually technically speaking it is Pulse Frequency modulation if you desire
to get specific, I was trying to keep the discussion general enough so the
entire audiance would understand.  It may very well be as you describe a
noise pulse.  However it is the timing and positioning of the signal that
encodes the data.

> I suggest you learn a few fundamentals before trying to pass yourself off
> as
> an expert. Spouting nonsense like this on topics you obviously do not
> understand will get you an idiot label rather quickly.

I know my fundamentals, and I know this topic very well, I have taught over
a thousand dealers about this topic and have been involved in close to 100
installs.  I was an HAI trainer until January 2005 when I left to be an
independant consultant.  I also know the developers of UPB personally and
speak with them frequently, I have the knowledge from the horses mouth, so
to speak.  I am not spuoting any nonsense, as you chose to say.

My point was to stress to those who have written off power line controls,
they should re-consider.  UPB is a very reliable technology.  The experience
I have with, shows that it works in any home with neutral. It is as reliable
as a hard wired system, with out the cost.  With that being said it is a
common agreement amoung the manufacturers that support UPB that in high
density dwellings like Apartment buildings and condos, a hard wired system
is a better choice.  In some cases it is more reliable than a hard wired
system, for example Vantage has at least one circuit board in there that if
it goes out, you have no lights.  UPB does not have any single point of
failure, except for a black-out...

--
Brett Griffin, Home Technology Consultant

Architechtronics, Inc.
get to know home technologyT
p. (610) 825.7018 f (215) 827.5484

*top 10 reasons to use Architechtronics for your next project
http://www.architechtronics.com/top10.html

**keep up on cutting-edge technology... join "the EDGE" for free at
http://www.architectronics.com/edge.html

-------------------------------------------


"Dave Houston" <nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:42c33c62.22342089@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> "Brett Griffin" <brett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>>I would recommend you take a hard look at UPB.  It has proven a 99.99%
>>reliability record for 5 years now.  Powerline used to mean X-10.  UPB
>>took
>>the X-10 ideology and made it work.  The two biggest problems with X-10
>>were
>>signal strength and the frequency it was used at.
>
> 5 years? It was first announced about 2.5 years ago, first shown about a
> year ago, and has been shipping for only 9 months or so.
>
>>Signal Strength.  X-10 transmits 5 volts at the zero line crossing.  It is
>>extremely easy to get 5 volts of noise on a powerline circuit, and the
>>zero
>>line crossing is where noise is most prevalent.  Once the voltage of the
>>noise surpasses the voltage of the signal, you lost communications.  The
>>second problem is X-10 transmits at 121 KHz.  At this frequency the signal
>>attenuates, or loses its strength over a short distance.  Combine these
>>factors together (low signal strength over a short distance, and a little
>>bit of noise) and X-10 does not work.
>
> You are full of it. The loss of signal strength is independent of
> distance.
> There have been numerous studies that confirm this. It's the inductive and
> capacitive loading that attenuates the signal.
>
> Most X-10 transmitters actually transmit 10Vpp at 120kHz. Noise is lowest
> at
> zero crossing.
>
>>Other complaints of X-10 had to use a coupler/repeater and it is slow.
>>What
>>do you think Radio Ra uses, basically every 30 feet you need a device to
>>repeat the signal to get good coverage, and Radio Ra is as slow if not
>>slower than X-10.  Now I am not bashing Radio RA, it is a great reliable
>>technology, but it 3 times the cost of professional X-10 or UPB.  However
>>if
>>you want terracotta wall plates than you better call Lutron to get Radio
>>RA.
>
> When did they reduce the speed of light? What about gravity? Have they
> changed that law, too?
>
>>Now enter UPB.
>>
>>UPB transmits approximately 1/6th of a cycle before the sine wave at 40
>>volts above the voltage of the sine wave.  It has a peak voltage around 60
>>volts transmitting in the 4-40 kHz spectrum.  What this means, it works
>>very
>>well.  You will not have noise the masks the UPB signal.  If you do, you
>>have a whole lot more to worry about than your lights, likely nothing in
>>your home will operate properly.  Due to its frequency, I have had dealer
>>tell me they have seen UPB transmit over 5 miles of electrical cabling.
>
> Your description of a UPB "signal" sounds very much like noise pulses
> which
> are quite common from triacs, motors, ballasts, etc. As I understand it,
> UPB
> generates their pulse by rapidly discharging a capacitor. That sounds like
> a
> noise pulse.
>
> I suggest you learn a few fundamentals before trying to pass yourself off
> as
> an expert. Spouting nonsense like this on topics you obviously do not
> understand will get you an idiot label rather quickly.