RE: Re: Context parameters within Message Bodies

[Ian B]

Hi Kevin

I have not thought too much more about the Rabbit stuff tbh. I have been
reading up on them though and they seem great with the exception of
accurate
timers and timing abilities. Whist I do use these at the moment this would
not be enough to stop me moving.

VIOM
The example I gave was just something that happened on the other list - and
wouldn't it be nice if there were modules with these capabilities at this
affordable price.

The Mega 128 with 128 flash, 4k ram, 4k eeprom and a fully decoded 64k
external bus is about 15 quid in single quantities. This comes down to
about
8 quid in qtys of 100. External components are pence and the Ethernet
hardware should come in at a about 14 quid or just over if all goes to
plan.
The PCB cost would be around a fiver ignoring setup costs. So, a simple
board and chip would then need assembling and testing all for about 35 quid
in hardware only. This would give me adequate space to do most things I
need
to. More ability would be a component cost as the PCB would be designed
around the requirements and still cost about a fiver after setup costs.

Whist the rabbit is better specified at the processor level e.g. ram etc.
it
would still have to have a second PCB made to enable to do most things as I
understand the ports etc. come out to headers.

It really is horses for courses with the Rabbit costing slightly more most
of the time in low volumes. I think little things like a twenty quid price
difference between competing products will sway the consumer (assuming
similar capability).

It sounds as though the Rabbit would be great to have the sort of brains
folks are talking about in an Ethernet node whist I am trying to create the
serial devices single minded simplicity/cost with an Ethernet interface.
So,
is it simply we are trying to achieve different things?

Finally, as long as my code is not too hardware oriented it should port
quite nicely. Even the hardware stuff is done using #defines so hopefully
changes would only need doing in one place.

Sorry, this is a bit rushed as it is time for work.

Thanks

Ian



>-----Original Message-----
>From: Kevin Hawkins [mailto:<a
href="/group/xAP_developer/post?postID=jHgHc_LyIWy6PGJUTst20i9yuE8N_N6sFXy-d8cPUNy6rtuj3BuelEhyAQgVPyd8vDrNQX-VJ2WEd6WIVm0DDPs">lists@u...</a>]
>Sent: 01 December 2003 01:51
>To: <a
href="/group/xAP_developer/post?postID=1IXgEeS92s5Zx6Rs9SSSLOXetzJpICCBBgevC2p1Ok01bMIT6lobqKkPSrU7zjDmm2Ta8HuXxWtzg_jOVt17jfDjZ2k">xAP_developer@xxxxxxx</a>
>Subject: RE: [xAP_developer] Re: Context parameters within Message
>Bodies
>
>
>Ian -
>
> As you know I have gone down a similar learning curve to you -
>embedded C etc. I started off PIC and then moved to the Rabbit
>controllers.
>
>
> Now to me the availability of a Rabbit core - the new 3710 for
>example which has 256K Flash 128K RAM and 1MB serial Flash plus
Ethernet
>onboard and assembled at a one off cost of $49 US ($39 qty 100) is a
>fantastic price - $10 more and you have 512K RAM and 512K Flash. I just
>wonder if you've looked at these again as you move to Ethernet ?? I
don't
>know how portable your C code would be to the Rabbit - and of course
there
>is the upfront cost of the dev system which includes the compiler - and
>there is existing xAP code for the Rabbit too ...
>
> Re your VIOM example btw - I have VIOM support within my xAP Rabbit
>board (basically because I have three VIOMs) - I could run up a Windows
xAP
>application for the VIOM if anyone is interested, should be a very
>quick job
>with just basic status and control for I/O.
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ian B [mailto:<a
href="/group/xAP_developer/post?postID=pvQ_0bCh7IgA9EUPNdYg3_h8cB-7xMnpNp4Dc09oLOOpVamjoLWzEqcIGN8dDKuaXFO772BMWM2VZg">Ian@M...</a>]
> > Sent: 30 November 2003 22:06
> > To: <a
href="/group/xAP_developer/post?postID=1IXgEeS92s5Zx6Rs9SSSLOXetzJpICCBBgevC2p1Ok01bMIT6lobqKkPSrU7zjDmm2Ta8HuXxWtzg_jOVt17jfDjZ2k">xAP_developer@xxxxxxx</a>
> > Subject: RE: [xAP_developer] Re: Context parameters within
> > Message Bodies
> >
> > Hmmm, not sure if that is a fair assumption to make
> > however it is too early to say for sure at the moment.
> >
> > I find developing software even in C is very time
> > consuming on an embedded platform. I will be sorely
> > tempted on my own kit to put in enough to get the job done
> > but no more.
> >
> > an example from the end user maybe
> > One of the guys on ukha_d has a problem a VIOM would solve
> > nicely but he has no spare cabling from the loft to the
> > PC. Imagine the VIOM with Ethernet for 60 quid (total
> > guess on price) and of course assuming there is network up
> > there. He would not care about other logic especially as
> > it would push up the price. Just give it an IP and send
> > and receive commands via whatever including xAP depending
> > on who builds the module.
> >
> > I agree Rabbit and other processors could do the serial to
> > Ethernet bridging quite easily and even build in some logic too.
> >
> > I think I am saying maybe we should try to emulate the
> > serial low spec model in low spec Ethernet devices and not
> > assume they will have power they may not have.
> >
> > It is early days yet and I still have to cross the bridge
> > of soldering a 100 pin chip with .65mm pitch. I am very
> > hopeful though and I have plans including Ethernet
> > enabling the control for my chicken hutch door sometime
> > next summer.
> >
> > Ian (thinking up ever crazier schemes)
> >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: mark_harrison_uk2 [mailto:<a
href="/group/xAP_developer/post?postID=_c5Vp4VidfGjN-K4gJ0xT2Yh4-ZbFUNyLSqBBTK4JBbxbFqVd8cBxBa1fioL93isQMx-g2Kph1o6w7eiypY">mph@a...</a>]
> > >Sent: 30 November 2003 21:32
> > >To: <a
href="/group/xAP_developer/post?postID=1IXgEeS92s5Zx6Rs9SSSLOXetzJpICCBBgevC2p1Ok01bMIT6lobqKkPSrU7zjDmm2Ta8HuXxWtzg_jOVt17jfDjZ2k">xAP_developer@xxxxxxx</a>
> > >Subject: [xAP_developer] Re: Context parameters within
> > Message Bodies
> > >
> > >
> > >I'd been imagining Rabbit, simply because I have one (it
> > provides xAP
> > >control for my hifi and could also bridge to xAP-serial
without
> > >breaking into a sweat.)
> > >
> > >I would suggest that anything serial can get away with
> > being "dumb"...
> > >
> > >... wheras anything with ethernet / wireless should look
> > at having a
> > >bit more horsepower / capability.
> > >
> > >M.
> > >
> > >--- In <a
href="/group/xAP_developer/post?postID=1IXgEeS92s5Zx6Rs9SSSLOXetzJpICCBBgevC2p1Ok01bMIT6lobqKkPSrU7zjDmm2Ta8HuXxWtzg_jOVt17jfDjZ2k">xAP_developer@xxxxxxx</a>,
"Ian B" <Ian@M...> wrote:
> > >> Ah, I may be one step ahead of you here then. I have
> > just ordered an
> > >> embedded Ethernet development kit which I am hoping
> > will enable me
> > >to add
> > >> Ethernet as the native interface for my new devices. It
will use
> > >the Realtek
> > >> chip found on your average 7 quid network card so I am
> > hoping the
> > >cost per
> > >> project will not be huge and certainly bring it into
> > the region you
> > >are
> > >> looking at below. We shall see.
> > >>
> > >> Whilst serial (485) is still a very cheap interface as
far as a
> > >networked
> > >> medium goes it is not supported in 99% of homes. This
> > applies even
> > >to my own
> > >> where I have a 100Mbit Ethernet pretty much everywhere
but not a
> > >serial
> > >> cable anywhere save to HV and the phone logger. The
> > watering etc.
> > >use
> > >> dedicated cables and not a serial link.
> > >>
> > >> This and feedback from various sources have led me
towards
> > >Ethernet. I think
> > >> this could fit into a 16k Atmel chip costing around a
> > fiver so it
> > >still
> > >> counts as a low end device in my book.
> > >>
> > >> I am hoping that new devices will come in around the
price point
> > >you are
> > >> looking at but in small quantities. This obviously
> > depends on the
> > >> capabilities and interactive stuff with screens etc.
> > will push the
> > >price up.
> > >> Something like my I/O controller will come in at the
> > lower end of
> > >the scale.
> > >>
> > >> What do you think?
> > >>
> > >> Ian
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >-----Original Message-----
> > >> >From: mark_harrison_uk2 [mailto:mph@a...]
> > >> >Sent: 30 November 2003 20:47
> > >> >To: <a
href="/group/xAP_developer/post?postID=1IXgEeS92s5Zx6Rs9SSSLOXetzJpICCBBgevC2p1Ok01bMIT6lobqKkPSrU7zjDmm2Ta8HuXxWtzg_jOVt17jfDjZ2k">xAP_developer@xxxxxxx</a>
> > >> >Subject: [xAP_developer] Re: Context parameters
within Message
> > >Bodies
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >OK - I should have explained better :-)
> > >> >
> > >> >I can see a situation where the logic is actually
> > interpreted in
> > >> >something like an ethernet<->serial xAP
bridge.
> > >> >
> > >> >On the serial side, we have PIC devices which are
> > basic input /
> > >> >output type telemetry modules.
> > >> >
> > >> >On the ethernet side we have more sophisticated
stuff,
> > including
> > >all
> > >> >the PC-based applications we have today.
> > >> >
> > >> >The hybrid-bridge in the middle MIGHT be a PC, but
is equally
> > >likely
> > >> >to be something, say, Rabbit-based.
> > >> >
> > >> >However, rather than simply passing the same xAP
> > messages from one
> > >> >side to another, it could process them, and take
into account
> > >> >state... thus leading IT to be the "rules
engine".
> > >> >
> > >> >With any decent volumes, a Rabbit-based device could
hit a £100
> > >price
> > >> >point today. In the next couple of years, we'll see
> > the power of
> > >> >devices at that price point go up, and likewise the
> > cost of devices
> > >> >at that power point go down.
> > >> >
> > >> >Such a device would be a FRACTION of the cost of a
> > Homevision, and
> > >> >compared to anything comparable would blow it out of
the water.
> > >> >
> > >> >Mark
> > >> >
> > >> >--- In <a
href="/group/xAP_developer/post?postID=1IXgEeS92s5Zx6Rs9SSSLOXetzJpICCBBgevC2p1Ok01bMIT6lobqKkPSrU7zjDmm2Ta8HuXxWtzg_jOVt17jfDjZ2k">xAP_developer@xxxxxxx</a>,
"Ian B" <Ian@M...> wrote:
> > >> >> >Yes I agree (been there - got the T
shirt)... but
> > what you are
> > >> >saying is
> > >> >> >that end nodes ultimately will be receiving
compiled scripts
> > >> >(xAPscripts)
> > >> >> >telling them how to interpret the various
schemas - sort of
> > >blows
> > >> >the small
> > >> >> >pic based end nodes out of the water.
Where, and who is
> > >developing
> > >> >> this......
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I second this as from experience xAP has pushed
me
> > towards ever
> > >> >more capable
> > >> >> processors to keep up with even the relatively
simple tasks.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> My ideas around the house have a lot to do with
networking
> > >> >(Ethernet) small
> > >> >> nodes at the moment and to be honest the vast
> > majority of folks
> > >> >interested
> > >> >> in HA maybe won't have a PC on 24/7. To keep
our
> > appeal as wide
> > >as
> > >> >possible
> > >> >> we should keep the hardware requirements as low
as possible
> > >> >wherever we can.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Don't get me wrong as I also believe the
PC/Linux/etc. has a
> > >place
> > >> >in this
> > >> >> somewhere. I remember how lost I was when my
own
> > server went down
> > >> >for a
> > >> >> fortnight with a blown motherboard and power
supply.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Ian
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
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> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
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