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Re: Anyone using much Z-wave?
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Hi Paul,
The chips and licensing all come from a single source - Sigma Designs. The
chances of them going titsup.com or slaughtering their cash cow are pretty
remote I'd say, so you should be safe for the foreseeable ;)
I compared ZWave with X10, but only insofar as both achieved ubiquity (and
relatively low cost) despite some technical quirks (perhaps Windows is a
better analogy, hahahaha). ZWave is far, far more reliable than X10. It has
good WAF. If I press a button, the intended result happens. Once in a blue
moon you'll get a 'dead node' - it is simply a matter of clicking on the
"well make it not dead, then!" icon and waiting a couple of
seconds. This
is usually because an intermediate node has died, moved, or been
accidentally placed in a Faraday cage etc. No biggie.
You have to have a controller, but in your case Comfort is the controller?
I don't believe you'll need one of those remote control jobbers. You can
provision your devices near the Comfort box, then move them in to place
(and 'heal' the network so it learns the new topology).
cheers
ant
On 22 September 2013 20:27, Paul Gordon <paul_gordon@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> Cheers for the thoughts Ant.****
>
> ** **
>
> From my POV, I=92m not honestly that bothered about how open or
proprieta=
ry
> the protocol is, but I=92m much more concerned that it=92s an
investment =
that=92s
> not going to be wasted on a system that disappears from the market
becaus=
e
> a single company goes out of business=85 and from what I can tell,
z-wave
> devices are manufactured, marketed and supported by **dozens** of
> different vendors who all sign up to the z-wave compatibility
programme, =
so
> there would seem little likelihood of z-wave disappearing in a puff of
> bankruptcy=85. It=92s a protocol, not a product, so no one company can
ex=
ert
> undue influence on its availability or level of support.****
>
> ** **
>
> Many of the other HA systems are equally closed & proprietary
too=85
> including some of the candidates I mentioned earlier; Clipsal CBUS has
> traditionally been very secretive (a little bit less so now I believe)
an=
d
> the same can be said of SONOS, but that doesn=92t stop me using, and
very
> much liking their products, because they do the other thing that I am
muc=
h
> more concerned about=85 that is, they just WORK, all the time, every
time=
,
> with rock solid dependability. That is so far removed from the
experience
> with X10; pressing an X10 button is often a complete lottery whether
the
> signal will get through..****
>
> ** **
>
> I presume I do **need** a z-wave controller to commission devices?...
I
> don=92t need it for anything more than that really=85 the logic engine
wi=
ll be
> comfort, and that is where all the =93smarts=94 will be, so have no
need/=
plan
> to get down & dirty with A.N. Other controller=92s logic or
programming
> environment.****
>
> ** **
>
> Cheers****
>
> ** **
>
> Paul G.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* ukha_d@xxxxxxx [mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx] *On Behalf
> Of *ant
> *Sent:* 22 September 2013 16:09
> *To:* ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> *Subject:* Re: [ukha_d] Anyone using much Z-wave?****
>
> ** **
>
>
>
>
> ****
>
> Hi Paul,****
>
> ** **
>
> I have some deep misgivings about ZWave. I don't like the proprietary,
> closed ecosystem, and I don't like various aspects of the (admittedly
now
> fairly ancient) protocol. Adding new devices, dead nodes, 'network
> healing', poor support for mobile nodes etc. Having said that, I
didn't
> much like X10 from a technical standpoint (who did!) and that didn't
stop
> us all from filling our houses with it.****
>
> ** **
>
> Ideally I'd like controllers and devices that are all using an open
> standard like 6LoWPAN, but meanwhile in the real world, you can
*actually
> buy* devices and controllers, and that counts for a lot. Which is why
my
> house has a bunch of ZWave devices in, presided over by a Fibaro
> HomeControl2. ****
>
> ** **
>
> The issues I mentioned above are irksome, but they only really bite
you
> when you're configuring a new system. In day to day use, it's been
pretty
> bulletproof. I stick with the Fibaro controller because it allows a
great
> deal of programmability, either using their visual environment, or
gettin=
g
> down and dirty in Lua script, and it integrates well with other
systems
> over tcp etc. I've also tried the Zipabox, which is cheaper, but not
quit=
e
> as flexible. It was similarly reliable though. I hear a lot of folks
have
> had good results with Vera controllers, but I haven't tried them
myself. =
*
> ***
>
> ** **
>
> The proprietary nature of the protocol still bugs me. I believe ZWave
> transceivers are available for Arduino et al, but AFAIK these will let
yo=
u
> build a custom controller, but not an end device (happy to be proven
wron=
g
> on that score), so I can't knock up a quick custom device and
integrate i=
t
> in to the network. For example, to automate my garage door opener
(which
> has low voltage open and close inputs) I had to jury-rig a Fibaro
shutter
> module and a couple of mains voltage relays. I couldn't find a ZWave
> "universal module" with say a couple of LV ins and outs, but
you can ofte=
n
> cobble something together with a bit of lateral thinking.****
>
> ** **
>
> cheers****
>
> ** **
>
> ant****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On 22 September 2013 15:05, Paul Gordon <paul_gordon@xxxxxxx>
wrote:*=
*
> **
>
> Hi all.
>
> I'm shortly going to move house, and thus have an ideal opportunity to
> embark on a "HA done properly" exercise... :-) the last 15
years or so
> having been an extended beta test!
>
> All that has passed the beta so far, and which will thus be included
in
> chez
> Gordon Mk 2 is Comfort, CBUS, and Sonos... X10 is definitely out of
the
> game, but there are potentially some use cases that those 3 systems
won't
> fully cover, so I may need to bring in at least one more HA
technology, a=
nd
> I'm thinking that may well be Z-wave. (this is based mainly on the
premis=
e
> that whatever new HA tech is chosen *MUST* integrate with Comfort,
which
> will be the brains of the whole thing, and there is good integration
with
> Z-wave via a dedicated UCM).
>
> So it looks like there is a pretty wide range of Z-wave products
availabl=
e,
> covering most/all types of devices.
>
> What I think I need is feedback from the HA community that is actively
> using
> Z-wave devices as to its long term reliability, ease of use,
robustness o=
f
> performance etc... to help me decide whether or not Z-wave should be
> allowed
> in to the new house...
>
> So, I put it to you... what are your thoughts, both good or bad, about
> Z-wave?
>
> Cheers!
>
> Paul G.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> ** **
>
>
>
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
>
>=20
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi
Paul,<div><br></div><div>The chips and licensing
all co=
me from a single source - Sigma Designs. The chances of them going <a
href=
=3D"http://titsup.com";>titsup.com</a>
or slaughtering their cash cow are pr=
etty remote I'd say, so you should be safe for the foreseeable
;)</div>
<div><br></div><div>I compared ZWave with X10, but
only insofar as both ach=
ieved ubiquity (and relatively low cost) despite some technical quirks
(per=
haps Windows is a better analogy, hahahaha). ZWave is far, far more
reliabl=
e than X10. It has good WAF. If I press a button, the intended result
happe=
ns. Once in a blue moon you'll get a 'dead node' -
it is simply=
a matter of clicking on the "well make it not dead,
then!" icon =
and waiting a couple of seconds. This is usually because an intermediate
no=
de has died, moved, or been accidentally placed in a Faraday cage etc. No
b=
iggie.</div>
<div><br></div><div>You have to have a controller,
but in your case Comfort=
is the controller? I don't believe you'll need one of those
remote=
control jobbers. You can provision your devices near the Comfort box, then=
move them in to place (and 'heal' the network so it learns
the new=
topology).</div>
<div><br></div><div>cheers</div><div><br></div><div>ant<br><div
class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><br><br><div
class=3D"gmail_quote">On 22 September 2013 20:27, P=
aul Gordon <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:paul_gordon@xxxxxxx"=
target=3D"_blank">paul_gordon@xxxxxxx</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue"
vlink=3D"purple">
<br><br>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Cheers
for the thoug=
hts Ant.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">From
my POV, I=92m not ho=
nestly that bothered about how open or proprietary the protocol is, but I=
=92m much more concerned that it=92s an investment that=92s not going to
be=
wasted on a system that disappears from the market because a single compan=
y goes out of business=85 and from what I can tell, z-wave devices are
manu=
factured, marketed and supported by *<b>dozens</b>* of
different vendors wh=
o all sign up to the z-wave compatibility programme, so there would seem
li=
ttle likelihood of z-wave disappearing in a puff of bankruptcy=85. It=92s
a=
protocol, not a product, so no one company can exert undue influence on it=
s availability or level of
support.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Many
of the other HA s=
ystems are equally closed & proprietary too=85 including some of
the ca=
ndidates I mentioned earlier; Clipsal CBUS has traditionally been very
secr=
etive (a little bit less so now I believe) and the same can be said of
SONO=
S, but that doesn=92t stop me using, and very much liking their products,
b=
ecause they do the other thing that I am much more concerned about=85 that
=
is, they just WORK, all the time, every time, with rock solid
dependability=
. That is so far removed from the experience with X10; pressing an X10
butt=
on is often a complete lottery whether the signal will get
through..<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
presume I do *<b>nee=
d</b>* a z-wave controller to commission devices?... I don=92t need
it for =
anything more than that really=85 the logic engine will be comfort, and
tha=
t is where all the =93smarts=94 will be, so have no need/plan to get down
&=
amp; dirty with A.N. Other controller=92s logic or programming
environment.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Cheers<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Paul
G.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a
name=3D"1414723ecdc1d598__MailEndCompose"><spa=
n
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-seri=
f";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt=
0cm 0cm 0cm"><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"
style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</s=
pan></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ta=
homa","sans-serif""> <a
href=3D"mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx=
m" target=3D"_blank">ukha_d@xxxxxxx</a>
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:u=
kha_d@xxxxxxx"
target=3D"_blank">ukha_d@xxxxxxx</a>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>ant<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 22 September 2013
16:09<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ukha_d=
@yahoogroups.com"
target=3D"_blank">ukha_d@xxxxxxx</a><br><b>Subjec=
t:</b> Re: [ukha_d] Anyone using much
Z-wave?<u></u><u></u></span></p></div=
>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p=
class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><div><p
class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">Hi
Paul,<u></u><u></u></p><div><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u>=
</p></div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have some deep
misgivings about ZWave. I don&=
#39;t like the proprietary, closed ecosystem, and I don't like
various =
aspects of the (admittedly now fairly ancient) protocol. Adding new
devices=
, dead nodes, 'network healing', poor support for mobile
nodes etc.=
Having said that, I didn't much like X10 from a technical
standpoint (=
who did!) and that didn't stop us all from filling our houses with
it.<=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p
class=
=3D"MsoNormal">Ideally I'd like controllers and
devices that are all us=
ing an open standard like 6LoWPAN, but meanwhile in the real world, you
can=
*actually buy* devices and controllers, and that counts for a lot. Which i=
s why my house has a bunch of ZWave devices in, presided over by a Fibaro
H=
omeControl2.=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p
class=
=3D"MsoNormal">The issues I mentioned above are irksome,
=A0but they only r=
eally bite you when you're configuring a new system. In day to day
use,=
it's been pretty bulletproof. I stick with the Fibaro controller
becau=
se it allows a great deal of programmability, either using their visual
env=
ironment, or getting down and dirty in Lua script, and it integrates well
w=
ith other systems over tcp etc. I've also tried the Zipabox, which
is c=
heaper, but not quite as flexible. It was similarly reliable though. I
hear=
a lot of folks have had good results with Vera controllers, but I
haven=
9;t tried them myself.=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p
class=
=3D"MsoNormal">The proprietary nature of the protocol still
bugs me. I beli=
eve ZWave transceivers are available for Arduino et al, but AFAIK these
wil=
l let you build a custom controller, but not an end device (happy to be
pro=
ven wrong on that score), so I can't knock up a quick custom device
and=
integrate it in to the network. For example, to automate my garage door op=
ener (which has low voltage open and close inputs) I had to jury-rig a
Fiba=
ro shutter module and a couple of mains voltage relays. I couldn't
find=
a ZWave "universal module" with say a couple of LV ins
and outs,=
but you can often cobble something together with a bit of lateral thinking=
.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p
class=
=3D"MsoNormal">cheers<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u=
></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p
class=3D"MsoNormal">ant<u></u><u></u></p><=
/div><div>
<p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div></div><div><p
class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"
style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><div><p
class=
=3D"MsoNormal">On 22 September 2013 15:05, Paul Gordon
<<a href=3D"mailt=
o:paul_gordon@xxxxxxx"
target=3D"_blank">paul_gordon@xxxxxxx</a>>=
; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"
style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi
all.<br><br>I'=
m shortly going to move house, and thus have an ideal opportunity
to<br>emb=
ark on a "HA done properly" exercise... :-) the last 15
years or =
so<br>
having been an extended beta test!<br><br>All that has passed
the beta so f=
ar, and which will thus be included in chez<br>Gordon Mk 2 is
Comfort, CBUS=
, and Sonos... X10 is definitely out of the<br>game, but there are
potentia=
lly some use cases that those 3 systems won't<br>
fully cover, so I may need to bring in at least one more HA technology,
and=
<br>I'm thinking that may well be Z-wave. (this is based
mainly on the =
premise<br>that whatever new HA tech is chosen *MUST* integrate with
Comfor=
t, which<br>
will be the brains of the whole thing, and there is good integration
with<b=
r>Z-wave via a dedicated UCM).<br><br>So it looks like there
is a pretty wi=
de range of Z-wave products available,<br>covering most/all types of
device=
s.<br>
<br>What I think I need is feedback from the HA community that is
actively =
using<br>Z-wave devices as to its long term reliability, ease of use,
robus=
tness of<br>performance etc... to help me decide whether or not
Z-wave shou=
ld be allowed<br>
in to the new house...<br><br>So, I put it to you... what are
your thoughts=
, both good or bad,
about<br>Z-wave?<br><br>Cheers!<br><br>Paul
G.<br><br><=
br><br><br>------------------------------------<br><br><*>
Join the A=
utomated Home Forums<br>
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