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Re: Request Input on new Project


  • To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
  • Subject: Re: Request Input on new Project
  • From: "mark_harrison_uk2" <mph@xxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:09:29 -0000
  • Mailing-list: list ukha_d@xxxxxxx; contact ukha_d-owner@xxxxxxx
  • Reply-to: ukha_d@xxxxxxx

Frank,

Do you mean "complete installations" or "devices".

Plenty of devices out there, some available commercially. As for
complete installations, as far as I'm aware, every xAP installation
in the field has a PC _somewhere_, simply because people want to be
able to do things like chuck data onto web pages and into databases.

The most complex installation I know of has a ratio of about 30-40
embedded devices per PC.

Certainly, my home installation is nothing like that complex, only 1
embedded device in regular use (the Rabbit-based controller for my hi-
fi, reviewed on automatedhome)... but several wireless PCs dotted
around the house that do web control.

Regards,

Mark

--- In ukha_d@xxxxxxx, Frank Mc Alinden <fmcalind@b...> wrote:
> Hi Mark
>             Are there xAP installations out there that are not
using pc,s??
>
> Frank
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: mark_harrison_uk2
>   To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
>   Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 9:22 PM
>   Subject: [ukha_d] Re: Request Input on new Project
>
>
>   Gavin,
>
>   In addition to xPL you should consider xAP 1.2
>   (www.xapautomation.org).
>
>   xPL and xAP are both forks from xAP 1.1 which have both moved a
long
>   way. Indeed the two founders of xPL worked on the Specification
of
>   xAP 1.2 before leaving because they had a different vision.
>
>   There are a number of technical differences between them. In my
view
>   (and others in both worlds will have different opinions), then
key
>   difference is that of the central controller model.
>
>   xPL is bound up heavily with xPLHal as the centrepiece. xPLHal is
1:
>   Good, and 2: Free. I am not aware of any xPL implementations that
>   don't use it.
>
>   xAP envisages a far more distributed world where a central
controller
>   is not inherently required by the architecture at run-time, since
end-
>   point components can have control logic pushed to them at install-
>   time. In practice, most xAP (90%?) installations in the field
have
>   ended up with a central controller, and no small number of them
use
>   xPLHal (which has good xAP 1.2 support.)
>
>   Scalability is good: the largest xAP installation in the field
has
>   about 120 "devices", a mix of "virtual devices"
such as
connectors
>   for computer-based stuff, and hardware devices such as
temperature
>   sensors, PIRs, relay controllers etc. I don't know what the
biggest
>   xPL implementation installed is, but I would be very surprised if
it
>   didn't scale up to the needs of 99.9% of homes. Some of the more
>   complex xAP installations are commercial not domestic.
>
>   Regards,
>
>   Mark
>
>
>
>   --- In ukha_d@xxxxxxx, Gavin Kistner <gavin@r...> wrote:
>   > SUMMARY
>   > I'm about 6 months away from beginning construction on my own
>   house,
>   > and I have extensive automation visions. I need lots of solid
urls
>   and
>   > recommendations from you experienced folks for my research, and
>   would
>   > like your feedback on an open source project I'm contemplating
>   > beginning for this effort.
>   >
>   > Despite the length of this post, I'm *not* asking you to design
or
>   > build my system for me. I'm looking for feedback.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > HEY THERE
>   > So, first, if cross-posting to all three of these lists is a
bad
>   idea,
>   > please wonk me with a stick of Rightness and tell me which is
the
>   > correct group to continue this discussion on.
>   >
>   > Second: Hey there! I'm excited to join the world of home
automaters
>   as
>   > more than a spectator, though the circumstances daunt me. :)
>   >
>   > You may look at the below and say "Uhm, this seems like an
insane
>   > amount of work, when solution _____ would work just as well. I
>   wonder
>   > why he's decided not to do that." The answer to those
sorts of
>   > questions is probably "Because I'm an impatient idiot who
hasn't
>   done
>   > his homework and research properly."
>   >
>   > Please feel free to yell at me and tell me a far easier way to
>   achieve
>   > my goals, though please read as much of the following as you
can
>   before
>   > doing so, because if you propose solution _____ which actually
only
>   > covers 80% of my goals, in my naivete I probably won't realize
that
>   > it's not the right solution until far later, and then I'll be
>   cranky :)
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > ROUGH GOALS FOR MY PARTICULAR HOUSE
>   > I'm a geek, but despite that my goal is to make the automation
as
>   > transparent as possible. No ugly wall warts, almost
no 'attractive'
>   > master control wallplates, no text-to-speech computers
announcing
>   > trivial things. The interior should look like a non-automated
>   house,
>   > and work like a non-automated house, with the exception of how
it
>   > reacts to its use, and the exception of a few wall-mounted
control
>   > touchscreens.
>   >
>   > Here's roughly what I'm aiming for:
>   >
>   > * Every (almost) light switch in the house should be able to be
>   > computer controlled, with about 2/3 of them dimmable. (Rough
count
>   is
>   > 23 dimmable light 'zones', and 10 non-dimmable.) This includes
4-6
>   > table/floor lamps.
>   >
>   > * 7 zones for music (speaker sets). Any zone should be able to
>   listen
>   > to any audio source, in an n-to-n matrix.
>   >
>   > * 6 audio sources.
>   >
>   > * 1 big TV, and the ability (hopefully) to route video signals
to
>   the
>   > wall LCDs and/or any computer in the house.
>   >
>   > * 5-6 video sources (3-4 of which are security cameras)
>   >
>   > * 3 watering zones
>   >
>   > * Light, Temperature, and Humidity sensors in 5-6 locations,
and a
>   full
>   > weather station outside also hooked in.
>   >
>   > * 7 radiant floor heating zones, controllable by the system.
>   >
>   > * A few motorized blinds.
>   >
>   > * All doors and operable windows with open/closed sensors.
>   >
>   > * All but one exterior door with computer controlled deadbolt,
>   > auto-opening using something like iButton.
>   >
>   > * An RF sensor for buttons activated from the car.
>   >
>   > * My own custom interface, designed by me.
>   >
>   > * The ability to set up complex triggers/macros *after*
>   installation,
>   > like: "If the average temperature in the livingroom is
above
___
>   and
>   > the heating is on, turn it off. If the heat is already off, and
the
>   > blinds are open, and the light level in the room is above ____,
>   close
>   > the blinds."
>   >
>   > * The ability to view graphs of historical sensor data
("show
me
>   the
>   > average temperature in the room over the last day").
>   >
>   > * I want to buy quality, premade components and hook them up. I
do
>   > *not* want to solder. (Not only have I never been very good at
it,
>   but
>   > primarily I want a solution that my friends can use just by
>   spending
>   > money themselves.)
>   >
>   > * If I can find them, I was really hoping to use touchscreen,
>   wireless,
>   > LCD thin network clients to both control the house and also use
>   other
>   > 'intranet' applications, and browse the web. Something in the
14-
>   17"
>   > range.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > WHY CAN'T I USE EXISTING SOLUTIONS?
>   > I dunno, maybe I can. But so far, every system I've looked
suffers
>   from
>   > one or more of the following problems:
>   >
>   > * Covers a portion of the system, but not all of it. (Lighting
and
>   AV,
>   > but not temperature or watering.)
>   >
>   > * Have expensive components which try and do too much work
>   themselves.
>   > (I already have a DVD player with 2 video outputs, a receiver
with
>   6
>   > video inputs and 2 outputs, and a TV with 3 video inputs and 2
coax
>   > tuners. Every piece is trying to do the job of every other
piece. I
>   > don't want a lightswitch that stores complex lighting schemes
when
>   > that's what the computer will be doing.)
>   >
>   > * Are proprietary, usually in a silly way. I can't easily
extend
>   the
>   > system myself later, and probably can't program it myself.
>   >
>   > * Have horrific 1980-looking touchpad interfaces, which are
usually
>   > designed around the hardware's features rather than the user's
>   needs.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > THE SOFTWARE SOLUTION - WHAT I'M (gasp) PLANNING
>   > So, what I'm thinking really needs to happen is to abstract the
>   various
>   > levels from each other:
>   >
>   > Interface <-- abstraction layer --> Control Software
<--
>   abstraction
>   > layer --> Hardware
>   >
>   > The project I'm planning (and dreading) is to write (open
source)
>   the
>   > middle component in such a way that people can develop their
own
>   > interface programs which communicate with it.
>   >
>   > More importantly, each type of hardware device (from different
>   > manufacturers and using different technologies) will have its
own
>   > 'plugin'/DLL written for it, which abstracts the implementation
>   from
>   > the control interface.
>   >
>   > For a far better visual representation, see:
>   > http://phrogz.net/tmp/HouseMouse_Block.png
>   >
>   > CoolTechnologyCompany will release a new bluetooth temperature
>   sensor.
>   > I (or you) will write the plugin for it that describes the
>   properties
>   > and methods it supports, and internally knows how to produce
the
>   values
>   > and perform the methods. I drop the plugin into my own
components
>   > directory, tell the Master Program to rescan components and
>   (without
>   > restarting the program and crashing the house) suddenly the
admin
>   side
>   > of the Master Program knows how to control that device.
>   >
>   >
>   > Note that when I mention this project a lot of geeks
>   say "Zeroconf!",
>   > "Embedded Linux!", thinking that I'm suggesting that
the
hardware
>   > device (the lightswitch) itself is supposed to expose its
>   > functionality. While this would be grand, this isn't the case
with
>   99%
>   > of the existing hardware out there, and that's what I want to
use.
>   I
>   > want a piece of software--the plugin--to provide the
abstraction.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > HELP ME!
>   > Am I insane? Does this middle Master Program already exist? Can
I
>   > accomplish all my goals above without this level of
abstraction?
>   >
>   > If I had a solution like this readily available, would you want
it?
>   > Does your answer depend on what language it was written in, or
on
>   the
>   > hardware platform (Windows vs. MacOS vs. Linux vs. BSD) that it
ran
>   on?
>   >
>   > If I wrote this in Java as an open-source project, would you be
>   willing
>   > and able to contribute?
>   >
>   > I know so little about the amazing array of hardware choices
>   available.
>   > (X10 switches; X10 in-wiring control; Lutron RadioRA; Clipsal
>   C_Bus;
>   > etc.). My software wouldn't care which system I ended up using,
but
>   the
>   > electrician wiring the house needs to know. How can I figure
out
>   what's
>   > good and what isn't, and (more importantly) what the full
spectrum
>   of
>   > offerings is?
>   >
>   > In your experience, do professional automation 'experts' know
what
>   > they're talking about, or do they only know the solution or two
>   that
>   > they are a reseller for? Should I hire such a consultant to
work
>   out
>   > the system, or are they going to just say "You're
dreaming;
here,
>   just
>   > buy this."
>   >
>   > Am I dreaming? Is this project too ambitious to even think of
>   > attempting with ~1 year to go until the house should be close
to
>   done?
>   >
>   > --
>   > (-, /\ \/ / /\/
>
>
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>
>
>   UKHA 2004: 15th and 16th May 2004
>
>   http://www.automatedhome.co.uk
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