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RE: Wiring LW11G
- To: <ukha_d@xxxxxxx>
- Subject: RE: Wiring LW11G
- From: "Alex Monaghan" <ha@xxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:37:21 -0000
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- Reply-to: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Just my 2p's worth.
Whilst we can all make an installation that is safe, we should all be
following the regs as these (try) to ensure that all installations are
standard.
Is there no way you can pull through a 3 core & earth (I know the
difficulties as I'm doing a total rewire at the moment!) so that you keep
the earth as an earth ?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nikola Kasic [mailto:nikola@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: 25 February 2003 00:10
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Wiring LW11G
>
>
> Hi Neil,
> I can contact you directly, but I think your opinion will be
> interesting for
> other members of the group.
> Why do you think regulations require that all cables have an earth
> conductor, if that conductor is not going to be connected?
> I don't see the logic, so you might have an idea because you were
dealing
> with all kinds of scenarios. All my switch dry lining boxes are
> plastic and
> earth conductor is not connected to anything. Just insulated so it
doesn't
> touch anything. Fortunately, it's not cut short, but left long,
> so I can use
> it.
>
> I can understand if I have switches with metal plate. In that case,
that
> plate needs to be earthed, to prevent Live coming to metal surface in
any
> scenario.
>
> However, all my switches are plastic (MK type) and have no terminal
for
> earth wire. Nor LW11Gs have, so I have one unused wire in the cable,
which
> regulations say I shouldn't use.
> I understand that you didn't write regulations, so I don't blame
> you ;-), I
> am just trying to understand the logic.
> Wire diameter is the same for all three wires, so that's not a
problem.
>
> BTW,
> Do you know LW11Gs? Do you know if there is any current going through
that
> neutral wire?
> I thought that current is coming in the Live terminal and exiting at
> Switched live, when switch is on. So I'm not sure what that
> neutral is for.
> It must be something with dimmer.
>
> Cheers,
> Nik
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Fuller [mailto:neil@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: 24 February 2003 19:23
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ukha_d] Wiring LW11G
>
>
> Hi Nik
>
> Wow - Those diagrams must have taken ages!!
>
> I can see exactly what you have done. From an electrical safety
point of
> view, it is certainly much better than your previous job.
>
> Electrically, it's safe enough, though it certainly is not to
current
> regulations which basically stipulates that all cables should
> have an earth
> conductor. There are exceptions (such as flexible leads to double
> insulated
> appliances).
>
> That said, it was only recently (well, about 30 years ago now!) that
> lighting circuits required an earth conductor.
>
> So, to sum up, electrically, it looks safe enough, as long as
> the switches
> are double insulated with no exposed metal etc. It is not to the
lastest
> wiring regulations and therefore, cannot be condoned. . . . . . . .
>
> It's a bit of fence sitting but professionally, I cannot give it a
clean
> bill of health.
>
> I hope you understand what I am trying to say.
>
> If you want any further help, Email me directly and we can talk.
>
> Regards
>
> Neil
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Nikola Kasic
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 11:50 AM
> Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Wiring LW11G
>
>
> Hi Neil,
> Thanks for jumping in with explanations.
> I discovered that ELCB is not connected to lighting circuits, so I
> became worried and already started labeling and doing work.
> Can you please confirm that what I'm doing is O.K.?
> I have only 3 LW11Gs so far (one is enough to kill you, though).
> LW11Gs are all controlling ceiling lights, they are dimmers, so no
> appliances are connected there. Metal parts of the lights are
earthed
> with earth wire.
> Original wiring is like this:
> I have plasterboard walls and plastic dry lining boxes. The wires
go
> from consumer unit to the distribution box behind the light.
> There, they are distributed via 3-wire cable (red, black and
> naked (with
> green/yellow sleeve attached on top)).
> One cable goes from distribution box to wall switch. The other
goes to
> light.
> The one going to switch carries Live (red wire), connects to
> switch and
> from switch it carries Switched Live (black wire (marked with
> red tape))
> back to distribution box. It's there connected to cable going
> to light.
> Switched Live is now red wire with black tape going to light and
via
> black wire current is coming back to Neutral in distribution box.
> Circuit is in that way closed.
> This is my attempt to make ASCII drawing of the diagram
>
> Dist. box
> Live (red) _________ red
> --------------------------+------------------------------
> Neutral (black) black (red tape) \ switch
> -----------------------+ +---------------------------
>
> -------------------------+----------------------------- not
> connected
> Earth ______
>
>
> black red (black tape)
> -
> --O--
> light
>
>
> The earth wire going from dist. box to dry lining switch box is
not
> connected in the switch box, because the box is plastic one and
switch
> doesn't have earth terminal, so it's just terminated with
connection
> block.
>
> What I did is, I just used three wires in switch dry lining box
for
> connecting LW11G, so it looks like this:
>
> Dist. box LW11G
> Live (red) _________ red
_______
> --------------------------+------------------------------L---
> Neutral (black) black (red tape) \
> -----------------------+ +---------------------------SL--
>
> -------------------------+-----------------------------N
> Earth ______ _______
>
>
> black red (black tape)
> -
> --O--
> light
>
> As we discussed earlier, this is not correct wiring, so I am now
doing
> it this way:
>
>
> Dist. box LW11G
> Live (red) _________ red
_______
> --------------------------+------------------------------L---
> Neutral (black) black (red tape) \
> -----------------------+---+ +---------------------------SL--
>
> ------------------------+ +----------------------------N
> Earth ____ _ _______
>
>
> black red (black tape)
> -
> --O--
> light
>
> I am now using green/yellow wire from dist box to switch dry
> lining box
> to carry neutral. I'll put a black tape on green/yellow sleeve on
both
> ends to indicate that it's not earth any more but neutral.
>
> Do you think that this is O.K. now, according to regulations etc.?
>
> I have no way to insert extra wire (except by ripping off the
> plasterboards).
>
> Cheers,
> Nik
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Fuller [mailto:neil@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: 23 February 2003 11:19
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ukha_d] Wiring LW11G
>
>
> Nik
>
> As an Electrical Engineer, I've watched this thread develop
"with
> interest"!
>
> Your latest post has made me decide that it's time for me to chuck
my
> threepennyworth in too . . . .
>
> The earth connection both within cables and, more importantly, at
> appliances, is there for a reason.
>
> If you go ahead with this, it means that your cables and
appliances do
> not have an earth connection. It could be argued that the Earth
and
> Neutral are at (more or less) the same potential as they are
connected
> to the star point at the sub station transformer, so it makes no
> difference. However, the earth connection at appliances is
> important to
> protect against short circuit failures to enable rapid
> disconnection via
> the fuse or trip and thus prevent the cable or appliance
> overheating and
> potentially bursting in to flames.
>
> Having actually witnessed someone getting a fatal shock due to
poor
> earthing on an appliance, I strongly urge you NOT to do this. The
chap
> in question was a scene hand on a film I was working on several
years
> ago. He died instantly. He left a wife and 2 young children.
>
> In the event of a fire or someone getting a _fatal shock_, don't
admit
> to your _bodge_ otherwise the insurance company are unlikely
> to pay out.
>
> Also, removing the earth from some appliances is likely to result
in
> radiated and conducted RFI (Electrical Noise) - something that you
> certainly don't want with X10 or similar appliances.
>
> I am in a similar situation here and I have decided that the
> only option
> is to rewire the switch drops. A pain in the botty but at least
it's a
> "proper job".
>
> As Phil said, "DIY'ers have a reputation for bodging things
> and doing a
> half assed job - please don't reinforce that reputation!"
>
> Think very carefully before you go ahead with this Nik.
>
> Regards
>
> Neil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Nikola Kasic
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 1:01 PM
> Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Wiring LW11G
>
>
> O.K.
> You convinced me. But that means that I'll have to use
green/yellow
> sleeved
> wire as a neutral, which is even more likely to cause
> confusion. I'll
> tape
> it with black tape. Also, it's not perfectly insulated (uses
sleeve)
> so if
> it touches something grounded, I'm in the same situation. Or if
it
> touches
> metal switch box.
> Nik
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Harris [mailto:phil@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: 22 February 2003 08:49
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Wiring LW11G
>
>
>
> Exactly Frank,
>
> Just because "it works" doesn't mean it's right or
you
> should do it.
> DIY'ers
> have a reputation for bodging things and doing a half assed
job -
> please
> don't reinforce that reputation!
>
> Phil
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frank Mc Alinden [mailto:armagh@xxxxxxx]
> > Sent: 22 February 2003 01:49
> > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: [ukha_d] Wiring LW11G
> >
> >
> > Nik
> > Do yourself a big favour and give it some more
> thought....If the
> > earth you are using as a neutral is connected to the
> earth bar on
> your
> > switchboard and some one works on it while the lights
> are on they
> will
> > certainly get a shock if they disconnect the earth
> wire.......and
> > as i said
> > before if you loose your main earth ..every thing that
> is earthed
> may
> rise
> > above ground potential.....a very dangerous
> situation.........Everything
> > will work fine BUT if something goes wrong it could be
> > fatal......................
> >
> >
> > Frank
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Nikola Kasic" <nikola@xxxxxxx>
> > To: <ukha_d@xxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 9:46 PM
> > Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Wiring LW11G
> >
> >
> > > I thought a bit more about it and I don't really see
it a big
> issue.
> > > Earth wire is normally naked in the cable, but but
there is a
> > > yellow/green sleeve put on it everywhere.
> > > Current comes from the Live wire on the LW11G and
goes out via
> Switched
> > > Live towards the light bulb and from light bulb via
neutral
> closes the
> > > circuit.
> > > There is no current going through neutral wire
(which
> I changed
> with
> > > ground wire) connected to LW11.
> > > If there is some current going that way, it would
> cause ELCB to
> trip,
> > > which is not happening, or the current going through
> it is very,
> very
> > > small.
> > > ELCB works in a way that it checks the current
coming
> from Live
> and
> the
> > > current returning through Neutral. If there is any
difference,
> it
> trips,
> > > because that means that current it dissappearing
somewhere
> (earth
> > > leakeage). Either via Earth wire, or via someones's
body to
> earth
> > > (that's more worrying).
> > > Ground and neutral are bonded anyway, not in your
flat, but in
> the
> > > substation.
> > > I'm not sure, therefore, what is that Neutral wire
used for in
> LW11.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Nik
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Phil Harris [mailto:phil@xxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: 20 February 2003 22:30
> > > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> > > Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Wiring LW11G
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > I must admit to doing this when im
commissioning a machine
> when
> > > theres no
> > > > neutral at the 3 phase outlets ..but its only
temperory
> job.....
> > > > If for some reason you loose the main earth it
could mean
> that
> > > > all earthed
> > > > equipment will become live when the light is
turned
> on..........not
> a
> > > > pleasent thought...........
> > >
> > > Absolutely correct if you still have the
"earth"
> conductor still
> tied
> to
> > > earth but that won't happen if you have moved it
over and tied
> it to
> > > neutral...
> > >
> > > ...but hopefully the fact that Frank and I are
basically
> spending four
> > > or
> > > five emails just clarifying exactly what we mean
gives you a
> bloody
> good
> > > idea of *WHY YOU SHOULDN'T DO THAT KIND OF
THING!!!!*
> > >
> > > Phil
> > >
> > >
> > >
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