RE: Newbie - controlling lights and creating scenes (Ocelot?)

["Kevin Hawkins" <lists@xxxxxxx>]

-----Original Message-----
From: K. C. Li [mailto:li@xxxxxxx]
Sent: 31 May 2003 15:16
On Sat, 31 May 2003, Kevin Hawkins wrote:

>             There are two big issues with X10 - one is the actual
technology
> which is rather long in the tooth now. Whilst it is easy to retrofit
because

I disagree with that statement, bearing in mind that I am commercially
biased towards X-10 as you are commercially biased towards C-Bus.



I have no commercial interest in X10 or C-Bus - I am just a user of both.



Power Line Technology (PLT) is not "long in the tooth" but the
X-10
application of the technology could do with more frequent updates. PLT is
being used on a trial basis to deliver broadband services in the UK now so
it is hardly yesterday's technology.

My statement reads that X10 technology is long in the tooth - and it is -
if
it was designed again today it would be quicker and more reliable, and
almost certainly bi-directional. PLT is an emerging technology - strangely
it surfaced nearly 20 years ago and then went very quiet - of late it is
appearing again in all sorts of areas and in this form is not what I would
call a 'long in the tooth' technology - indeed 'IF' PLT can be introduced
in
a way that doesn't impact our radio spectrum I shall be truly impressed. I
remain sceptical that this is possible for broadband delivery and suspect
that commercial needs may override the loss of spectrum in the end, Not
that
this is necessarily wrong. PLT has an important role to play (alongside
radio) in the ease of use stakes within a home environment.

The standard X-10 command set is
fairly comprehensive and it is further enhanced by the addition of
X-10 Extended Commands.

True but it is flawed in that it is not a delivery confirmed transport and
it is prone to attenuation and noise. In a small environment it can be very
effective. I
> it uses your existing mains wiring it is fairly slow and prone to
being
> unreliable. The second issue is the range of products available in the
UK
-

X-10 can be made to be almost as reliable as hardwired systems if
sufficient planning and preparation are done beforehand. Unlike a closed
and restrictive hardware system, X-10 sometimes gets the blame for all
kinds of problems that are beyond the control of X-10 itself.

Yes, but it is a design weakness that makes X10 susceptible to these issues
in the first place. I use X10 here and I have areas that work almost 100%
and areas that just don't work. True I could probably fix this with the use
of repeaters, better modules and filtering but the fact remains it is not a
system that you can depend on totally.



The inherent
speed of X-10 is indeed slow but, in my view, sufficiently fast for most
domestic and commercial applications that it is designed to control.

As I said the speed is slow in relative terms but it is acceptable - it has
delays in creating scenes (assuming you have non scene capable X10 devices)
as sequential commands have to be sent. Also taking Ken's point -X10 PIR to
HomeVision say to X10 light on (entry to room) is an appreciable delay (1
second plus). However it is very acceptable to some people and for many
applications delays are not critical
We have managed to produce X-10 modules that are up to ten times more
sensitive than standard X-10 modules and are much more tolerant on
interference. Again, it is not the technology itself that is the problem,
it is the application of it that sometimes causes reliability issues.

Well perhaps but these are very new and 95%+ of the installed X10 base in
the UK does not use this technology and hence the reputation was earned.
> they are not cosmetically attractive and offer limited functionality
at a
> much higher price than the US (bargain eh !). We have very few two way
I don't recall any retailers claiming that UK X-10 modules are bargains
but they are significantly cheaper than modules of other technologies. For
people that simply cannot lay down dedicated hardware infrastructure or
the high initial startup cost of other technologies, X-10 represent a
viable and effective solution.



I think X10 is a super solution for a retrofit scenario where additional
cabling is awkward - it is also very cost effective


> modules (which allow the status of a device to be read) nor two way
light
> switches for example. The issues you raise below are real issues that
I
had

Two-way lighting can easily be achieved by the use of RF, MicroModule or
DIN rail modules. It is not as simple a replacement as other X-10 modules
are but it is not a great hardship to do ether.



Two way lighting could not be easily achieved - at least not as easily as
simply removing a switch and replacing it with another which is the great
retrofit advantage of X10.

If you use RF you have only the stick on wall switches -and in my house RF
has hardly any useful range at all

The Micromodules are relatively new - I assume from what you say they can
be
placed at one end of an N-way switching circuit and support dimming with
intermediate C/O momentary switches if there are such things. I also assume
they require no neutral feed ??

DIN modules are not an easy option as they require partial rewiring. Not
difficult but not easy - C-Bus or others are no better btw. What I was
really saying was that the X10 light switch should have been designed to
support 2 way switching from the off.


Status response capability, although a desirable feature, is not as
essential as some people would think it is. The X-10 command set has
Status Request and Status Response as part of the standard protocol. The
feature is underused at the moment but more and more modules are being
launched with the feature. eg. AWM2 MicroModule.

Status response comes into its own as the only way that you can check that
a
device has received an X10 command - if you have any modules that are not
100% dependable in their operation it is essential. Plus as most X10
devices
do not send a status change X10 message out when they are manually changed
by the local switch this is the only way to know when things change state
and it has to be accomplished by a slow polling mechanism which adds more
to
the X10 traffic compounding the performance and reliability issues due to
collisions etc.

Two-way appliance and
lamp modules have been available for many years in the U.S. market but the
take-up rate has been disapppointing. The feature is really of
significance for computer controlled applications and, as always, there
are ways around the lack of the facility.



What are the ways around this >? Do you mean installing current sensors
and
feedback using wired cables ?



> expected to be resolved years ago by any sensible company wanting to
drive
a
> growth market for X10.  Most people who are concerned over the
cosmetics

You are assuming your interpretation of the market demand is the same as
what is actually happening in the marketplace.



I agree this is my take on the market - but to me the X10 solution could
have been made far more attractive and become as prevalent as it is in the
US (per capita) with some simple design decisions - the 2 way light switch
being one and cosmetics being the other. Whether 2 way is important or not
is I agree debateable. For the more critical user then it would have been
very desirable - but also to achieve the low price points and hence volume
it obviously is not possible. What I am really trying to say is the range
of
options for X10 in the UK has been very restricted for a very long time.



> lot more capable. There are a few alternative 'higher end' systems
around
> like Clipsal's C-Bus and Polaron but they require a small connector
cable
to
> be run between all the switches etc.

I do not disagree with you on alternative and more capable systems but
they invariably require a minimum proprietary wiring infrastructure and
substantial investment on the system concerned.



Agreed - although as Clipsal mentioned at the UKHA meet they have a totally
RF based retrofit solution available - at what price and with what features
and reliability remains to be seen.


>             Ian on this list is working on an alternative to X10 that
again
> uses the mains wiring for communication but is much faster and
reliable in
> that it supports two way communications (status). However it's a few
months
> off being available yet and may still require some partial rewiring in
your
> scenario.

While it is good to hear other emerging applications of PLT, would that
offer 100% reliability under all conditions as demanded on X-10? Would
modules be less expensive and more aesthetically pleasing as X-10?



Ian has addressed this in another post - certainly the bidirectional nature
of the communications makes it apparent when something hasn't worked. PLT
is
always likely to be less dependable than custom wiring. The speed is
significantly improved too. Cosmetics and pricing are bound to be issues to
a home developer but there is a need for the technical advantages of the
product and an 'out of sight' mounting eg behind a face/switchplate is
workable for many situations - as with the MicroModules.

>             Re the scene issues - although X10 is relatively slow it
is
not
> unworkable for scenes although the sequential switching is quite
evident -

Again, it is the application of the function that is inadequate, not the
technology itself. Proper scene control is available on some 3rd party
X-10 modules. eg. SmartLinc.



Ahhh - news to me -  Is SmartLink available in a UK CE approved version
then
??? . and their wall dimmers as a UK size light switch replacement ? I have
some of the US versions bridged from 110V to 240V - I use them for scenes
an
the two way comms.



One of our own-designed lamp module will have
multiple scene capability with variable ramp rate using the X-10 Extended
Command. An example of variable ramp rate: Lamp modules that are currently
set to 30%, 60% and 70% dim levels can be commanded to a new dim level of,
say, 80% in 2 seconds. The modules will calculate their own ramp rates to
arrive at the desired 80% level within the time limit of two seconds
smoothly.



Great stuff - looking forward to these - are they bidirectional too ?

What I'm trying to point out is that the X10 UK market has been in
existence
now for what 15+ years and we still lack some basic products to fill out
the
range.  Some of this is due to woeful disregard for the needs of the UK
market (2 way light switches) etc. I know the products are significantly
more expensive than US equivalents but those are the laws of volume
production. The other basic point is that although the basic reliability of
X10 can be improved , at a cost, by better transmitters, more sensitive and
selective receivers etc it is still a tired technology. I think it's great
for the price - and it is really easy to install  and get it working but to
then have to involve repeaters, filters etc in some scenarios is an
indication of the fallibilities of the system. I would (do) recommend X10
to
all the people I come across who want to get involved in HA - it is a
fantastic entry level product and it serves many people well, I still use
it
myself and the control with things like HomeSeer, HomeVision, JDS, Ocelot,
etc are second to none - Horses for Courses - the market evolves.



>             Lastly - just a comment - if you do go the route of some
'micro
> modules' that sit behind sockets then you must ensure that they are
wired
in
> a way that complies with regulations and can switch whatever rated
load
> COULD be plugged into the socket. Really if you switch a 13A socket
then
you
> should be able to handle 13A+ although fusing at lower currents is a
way

I agree. It is potentially dangerous to have mains sockets that are wired
to lamp modules. The possibility of plugging something that is not
"incandescant lamp only" into the socket and causes overheating
is too
high for comfort.



Forgot to mention Helen (if you've read this far ;-) that there is a X10
replacement 13A wall mounting socket for the UK - replaces your twin socket
with a single X10 switched unit.


Kevin