RE: IRM +FirM Interfacing Update

["Nikola Kasic" <nikola@xxxxxxx>]

Hi Dan,
You wrote this:

Feedback from where? When a command is received in the AutoM8it
framework,
then you can decide there what to do, generating an output event... You
will
know at that time the command received and the zone, so you can do what
you
want at that specific input event... Where is the feedback?
    and Frank wrote this:
It does analyze the signal and responds by sending a ir signal which
the
receiver picks up and sents back again to hv or pc.......Its like when
you
bring a guitar close to the speakers of an amp you get feedback and 
the
squealing noise is the result..........The only thing i can think of is
if
the RX Mode is disabled before and 500msec after a transmission has
occurred
that might work... will ask Dan.......

so I was a bit confused... But if you say that there's no problem with
feedback if I go for your software and FirM, then I'll trust you.:-).

Cheers,
Nik

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Dan [mailto:dtoma@xxxxxxx]
  Sent: 25 October 2002 14:27
  To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
  Subject: Re: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing Update


  > Sorry Dan,
  > I obviously don't understand properly how this all IR stuff
works.
  > What's the "carrier". I suppose that's some high
frequency IR signal
  >modulates.

  In order to be able to filter the signal at the receiver, this
is
modulated
  with a carrier, usualy between 30 and 40KHz.
  In that way, you have two main advantages:
      - can put a filter to increase the S/N
ration
      - as the fill factor is less than 1/2,
usually 1/3 or less, the LED
can
  drive a very big current for a short period of time and the range
can be
  increase

  >  I see that there are two types of IR signals, one with,
and one without
  > "carrier".
  > I suppose that remotes use carrier.

  Mainly ...yes.... it is an old IR protocol used by ITT, with very
small
  pulses and without a carrier, but the single advantage of that
protocol
was
  that it require a very small current to operate, increasing
dramatically
  remote battery life. As as cons, the range was not so good and
the
bouncing
  on walls is not as good as on carrier based protocols. So remotes
can use
  both....
  .. and more

  > Here you say that FirM transmitts signal without carrier.
  No... What I want to say is that IRM send the command to the FirM
infrared
  output interface without a carrier, because Firm himself modulates
the
  signal with the 38KHz carrier and drive the infrared LED.
  IRM can generate the carrier too, if is used with a TxD based
interface
(you
  have an option in the interface)... then the carrier is software
generated,
  so you can use a simple IR LED connected to the TxD pin to send
IR
commands.

  > What the equipment understand? Both?
  I do not understand this question.....

  > My whole idea for preventing feedback was to modify original
signal in a
  way
  > that it will still be understood by receiving equipment (TV,
video), but
  > FirM and your software will be able to detect that it has been
modify,
so
  > you'll not analyze and transmit it anymore.

  Feedback from where? When a command is received in the AutoM8it
framework,
  then you can decide there what to do, generating an output event...
You
will
  know at that time the command received and the zone, so you can do
what
you
  want at that specific input event... Where is the feedback?


  > By detecting those
  > modifications, you will know that it already passed through
FirM and
your
  > software and passing it though again would generate
feedback.

  As you will use IRM plugin for both input and output, the feedback
is
  excluded, because during a command send, the receiving routine is
stopped,
  in the application. No need for other precautions.
  If you mean by feedback the possibility to receive your own
generated
  command and generate an infinite loop, this is not possible with
my
  application.

  > I hope that you understood me. I don't know how to translate
that in
bits
  > and "carriers". Maybe such thing is not possible to
achieve?

  Not only possible, it is .... REAL..:-))

  Best regards,
  Dan

  Cheers,
  Nik
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Dan [mailto:dtoma@xxxxxxx]
    Sent: 25 October 2002 12:51
    To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
    Subject: Re: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing Update


    Hi Nikola,

    > Regarding feedback, I thought that
"brain" (PC, Homevision) analyzes
any
    > signal received from zones and then decides where
to transfer it. That
    way,
    > if I use TV remote in Living room, where TV itself
is located, it
    recognizes
    > the code as TV command and knows that there is no
need for
transferring
    that
    > code to other rooms or to living room itself,
because TV can receive
    command
    > from remote controller directly.

    If you will use AutoM8it, then this will be easily
possible, based on
    events.
    Anyhow, the system does not pass IR commands by
himself.

    > If you send a TV command from bedroom, it knows
that there's no TV
there
    and
    > transmitts command in the living room only, because
it knows that TV
is
    >there.
    The same comment.

    > Can Dan put some more inteligence in signal, e.g.
by putting one or
two
    > extra bits at the end of the original signal as
"identifiers". "Brain"
    will
    > then know if it receives such signal that it was
sent by FirM so it
will
    not
    > transmit it anymore. Such "identifier"
bits should not be recognized
by
    any
    > of the equipment as commands.

    If I understand well, you want to use two systems in
paralel? The signal
    generated by the PC is the IR command (without the
carrier if using
FirM),
    so if I put some extra bits, then it will not contain a
valid IR
command.
    Please be more specific.

    Thank you,
    Dan


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Frank Mc Alinden
[mailto:armagh@xxxxxxx]
      Sent: 25 October 2002 11:47
      To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
      Subject: Re: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing
Update


      Hi Nik
                 
The cat5 socket is the highest component so around
      10-15mm....Remember though a cat5 plug goes
into it....

      IR Feedback
      If you use blaster type emitters then when
you press the button on
your
      remote pointed at the rx unit the response
from the pc (ir signal)
will
    get
      send out of the blaster ir led picked up by
the tv or whatever and
also
    the
      zone rx unit and sent back again to the pc
and just goes into an tx rx
      loop...........

      Frank


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Nikola Kasic"
<nikola@xxxxxxx>
      To: <ukha_d@xxxxxxx>
      Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 8:04 PM
      Subject: RE: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing
Update


      > Hi Frank,
      > Just checked my single gang box.
      > Dimensions are 68x68x25mm
      > So probably it will fit into double
gang one.
      > Can you tell me what's the depth of the
device?
      >
      > There's no way for me to bring CAT5
close enough to use stick on
    emitters.
      >
      > What are feedback problems?
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Nik
      >   -----Original
Message-----
      >   From: Frank Mc Alinden
[mailto:armagh@xxxxxxx]
      >   Sent: 24 October 2002
12:19
      >   To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
      >   Subject: Re: [ukha_d] IRM
+FirM Interfacing Update
      >
      >
      >   Hi Nik
     
>              
I think there would be problems if using ir blaster
type
      >   emitting......i have only
tested the system with stick on
      > emitters........Im
      >   sure there would be
feedback problems...Have you located your cat5
      points
      >   above were your equipment
is....if so is there any way you can get
a
      thin
      >   type speaker wire down to
the equipment to use for emitters????
      >   > And if it is, will it
fit into a single gang box?
      >   Its been a long time since
i seen a UK plate.....the pcb is around
    75mm
      x
      >   50mm
      >
      >   Frank
      >   ----- Original Message
-----
      >   From: "Nikola
Kasic" <nikola@xxxxxxx>
      >   To:
<ukha_d@xxxxxxx>
      >   Sent: Thursday, October 24,
2002 8:13 PM
      >   Subject: RE: [ukha_d] IRM
+FirM Interfacing Update
      >
      >
      >   > Hoooray!
      >   > Three times...
      >   > But, of course,
nothing is perfect, so to get SWMBO approval i
  would
      > like
      >   to
      >   > put transmitters and
receivers high on the wall in a box behind
a
      > blanking
      >   > plate. I would then
drill a hole in a plate for IR LEDs.
      >   > Is something like that
possible?
      >   > And if it is, will it
fit into a single gang box?
      >   > And will single CAT5
cable be enough for both Tx and Rx?
      >   > Electrician put the
cables throug the strategic points last
week,
    and
      > he's
      >   > not finished yet. I
left enough length curled and hidden for the
      future
      > IR
      >   > solution, but if I can
do it the way I plan, I might order
      >   > transmitters/receivers
and ask electrician to put boxes in place
  and
      >   cables
      >   > through wall to each
box.
      >   >
      >   > Dan's idea of
controling lights via IR is interesting.
      >   > But where transmitters
must be placed relative to IR receiver on
    light
      >   > switch? Can they be on
the same wall? That means that IR signal
  will
      > have
      >   to
      >   > bounce off the walls.
Is that possible and will they bounce off
  any
      wall
      >   and
      >   > furniture, or just
some (e.g. wall carpets).
      >   >
      >   > Cheers
      >   > Nik
      >   >  
-----Original Message-----
      >   >   From:
Frank Mc Alinden [mailto:armagh@xxxxxxx]
      >   >   Sent: 22
October 2002 20:40
      >   >   To:
ukha_d@xxxxxxx
      >   >   Subject:
Re: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing Update
      >   >
      >   >
      >   >   Thats
correct Nik
      >  
>                              
Hopefully when finished (the pc
      interface)
      >   a
      >   > pc
      >   >   user can
have a multizone rx tx /rx using Automat8it software
  with
      > Dans
      >   >   plugins
and my pc interface + FirM .
      >   >
      >   >   Frank
      >   >   -----
Original Message -----
      >   >   From:
"Nikola Kasic" <nikola@xxxxxxx>
      >   >   To:
<ukha_d@xxxxxxx>
      >   >   Sent:
Wednesday, October 23, 2002 1:35 AM
      >   >   Subject:
RE: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing Update
      >   >
      >   >
      >   >   >
Frank, if I understand properly, with IRM and FirM you can
use
    PC
      >   >  
(Autom8it)
      >   >   > as a
brain and control where the commands will be
transmitted.
      That
      >   way
      >   > IR
      >   >   >
commands will not be sent through the whole house, but to
the
      >   >  
pre-programed
      >   >   > zones
only. Also, we don't need a HV for controling FirM,
but
    can
      > use
      >   > PC.
      >   >   > Can
you tell me am I right?
      >   >   >
Cheers,
      >   >   >
Nik
      >   >  
>   -----Original Message-----
      >   >  
>   From: Frank Mc Alinden [mailto:armagh@xxxxxxx]
      >   >  
>   Sent: 22 October 2002 12:38
      >   >  
>   To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
      >   >  
>   Subject: [ukha_d] IRM +FirM Interfacing Update
      >   >   >
      >   >   >
      >   >  
>   HI all
      >   >  
>           Just a
quick update on were Dan and I are at with
  Dans
      IRM
      >   and
      >   >   my
      >   >   >
FirM....
      >   >   >
      >   >  
>   Well at the moment Using Dans software the pc can send
a
tx
    zone
      >   > command
      >   >   > to
the FirM Interface and select a tx zone on
firm.......Also
    when
      > an
      >   ir
      >   >   >
signal is received by Dans software it asks the interface
for
    zone
      > id
      >   > and
      >   >   >
displays it on the pc........At this point im trying to get
my
    ir
      >   sytem
      >   >   > (firm
+ hv) to respond to a txed ir signal with little luck
  not
      sure
      >   if
      >   >   its
      >   >   > a
hardware problem????
      >   >   >
      >   >  
>   More Soon
      >   >   >
      >   >  
>   Frank
      >   >   >
      >   >  
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >   >   >
      >   >   >
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