Re: placing microphones...

["psghome2002" <psghome@xxxxxxx>]

It's worse when your commands are misinterpreted rather than not
recognised at all...

How embarassing when standing naked in the living room trying to
turn on the TV (you know you've done it!) and all of a sudden the
lights come on full and the curtains open!

Paul.

--- In ukha_d@y..., "Amar Nagi" <amar@a...> wrote:
> Your points about a phone are true, but you have to have a
compromise.
> I would not like to be sitting in the bathroom screaming commands
> That are not being recognized, I would rather just have the
wireless
> Phone with me. I mean if I am in the bathroom I would still want
> To be able to answer the phone.
> 
> I would have loved a Star Trek Solution but found to my
disappointment
> It just does not exist and will not for a long time. I spoke
> To a lot of automation experts in the states and over here too.
> And that is what I found.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nikola Kasic [mailto:nikola@k...]
> Sent: 15 July 2002 17:34
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx > Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...
> 
> You're right, but I don't have to implement everything now. I have to put cables for speakers, PIR and IR Tx/Rx, so I'll use the
oportunity to put mic cable as well. I hope this is the last time I
am putting cables and I'll probably put speakers now and tre rest of
the cables hide in the wall. So when the time comes and technology
is ready, I'll be ready as well.
> The problem with phone is that you still have to carry phone with
yourself. Then IR remote would be even more reliable. Recognition
would be 100%, but the point is not having to carry anything.
> Do you carry phone in a bathroom? ;-).
> And what if you want to give some command while someone is talking on the phone?
> Nik
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: Amar Nagi [mailto:amar@a...]
>       Sent: 15 July 2002 17:17
>       To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx >       Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: placing micro= phones...
>       Nikola,
>      
>       Can i just add something to this discus= sion.
>       I too looked at a microphone solution t= o VR home automation,
and after alot of
>       research i decided not to. I went for a= cordless phone
solution instead.
>       It is just not reliable enough. One maj= or point i hated was
if you have guests
>       round with kids they too can start spea= king commands.
>       I saw a few future homes and each one o= pted for the phone or
headset solution.
>       Check out the orange.co.uk future home = project.
>      
>       It can be really embrassing siting with= guests trying to
give commands
>       to your node0 and getting no response, = whereas the phone
solution
>       works i would say 95% of the time if no= t more.
>      
>       Food for thought..........
>      
>             -----Ori= ginal Message-----
>             From: Ni= kola Kasic [mailto:nikola@k...]
>             Sent: Mo= n 15/07/2002 16:57
>             To: ukha= _d@y...
>             Cc:
>             Subject:= RE: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...
>             Paul, >             I am sit= ting in a sofa opposite the TV and I am
faced towards TV. Where should I mount my mic? If I mount mic on a
wall behind me it will be closer to me then to the TV but it will be
behind my back. If I place it behind TV, I'll be faced towards mic,
but TV will be closer. So, which way to go?
>             My origi= nal plan is neither. I planned to put it
above the doors of the lounge, so it would be at on the side, almost
equally distanced from me and TV (slightly closer to TV). But
distance between me and mic and TV and mic will be about 4-5m, while
distance between me and TV is about 3.5m.
>             Is that = O.K?
>             I am rea= ding all the theory, but I'm not smarter.
All the documents are for the environment when you know where
speaker is standing, so you use different kinds of mics to enhance
reception from speaker and attenuate the noise. Hence kardioid etc.
mics.
>             However,= in a flat I'll be moving and for moving
speakers they recommend using wireless mics which you wear, but you
don't want those either. So there's no proper solution. I'll asume
that I'll be in a sofa and try to adjust everything for that
scenario. All the rest is in god's hands.
>             Where di= d you buy your microphones from?
>            
>             I just o= rdered mic cable. It would cost me about 44
quid, because delivery is =A38.
>             Spoke to= Mark from West London Elec as you
recommended.
>             They don= 't have web site yet (will in a month, he
said) and their address is 9-11Acton High Road if anyone is
interested.
>            
>             You said= that you did a lot of research before
diving into this. What makes you think that recognition is not good
because of software and not because of hardware or microphone
placement?
>             Did you = ever consider placing wireless microphones,
instead of wired ones, so you can place more of them, at more
appropriate places?
>             Regardin= g noise cancellation, did you consider
having one mic very close to TV speaker and use that signal for
cancellation. Maybe having wireless one and place it on top, or
inside the TV speaker, or inside TV?
>            
>             Nik
>              &n= bsp;    -----Original Message-----
>              &n= bsp;    From: psghome2002 [mailto:psghome@h...]
>              &n= bsp;    Sent: 15 July 2002 13:21
>              &n= bsp;    To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx >              &n= bsp;    Subject: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...
>              &n= bsp;    I'm emailing several people with the same
info at the moment - maybe
>              &n= bsp;    I should put it all down on a web page (if I
ever get the time!).
>              &n= bsp;    See my comments below (rather long though):
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    > What do you use them for, at the moment?
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    Used for Voice Recognition - tried HAL2000
and HomeVoice. Both got
>              &n= bsp;    serious limitations in the way I want to use
it though. I've been
>              &n= bsp;    talking to Dan Hoenhen (ACE) about him
developing an ACE VR module
>              &n= bsp;    which could potentially be much more
flexible than HAL or HomeVoice.
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    Also will use as additional voice/noise
tracking as part of Comfort
>              &n= bsp;    alarm system - recording when alarm
activated. Got a lot to do
>              &n= bsp;    before that though.
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    > Do you have one in each room, or maybe two
in larger rooms like
>              &n= bsp;    lounge?
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    only one in each room (well 7 so far).
Although some of my rooms are
>              &n= bsp;    fairly large, one mic picks up voice OK
(depending on background
>              &n= bsp;    noise). Interesting listening to
conversations - not that I'd do
>              &n= bsp;    that of course!
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    > Which cable did you use? Someone said that
it's very important to
>              &n= bsp;    put good
>              &n= bsp;    > quality microphone cable. Where did you
buy it?
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    I agree - mic cable is very different to
other types of cable. I
>              &n= bsp;    used an Adastra Z323 cable - 2 cores with
overall screen.
>              &n= bsp;    recommended for 'installed' sound
applications. Got it from  West
>              &n= bsp;    London Elec - Mark - 0208 9922155. =A335.25
inc VAT per 100m drum.
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    > And what's your longest run from mic to
mixer?
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    About 20-30m I guess. Mic cable can run much
longer distances
>              &n= bsp;    though. I've used it on productions in
excess of 60m
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    > I am sorry for so many questions, but
there are only few people
>              &n= bsp;    with
>              &n= bsp;    > microphones on this group, so you are very
valuable source of
>              &n= bsp;    information.
>              &n= bsp;    > It seems that the most important thing is
placing them.
>              &n= bsp;    > Where did you place yours?
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    On the wall at light switch height. Although
the guys at Shure are
>              &n= bsp;    very adamant about not ceiling mounting, I
did try taping a mic at
>              &n= bsp;    various points around the room and the
difference was normally quite
>              &n= bsp;    small. Best to site it towards where you
will speak. I suggest you
>              &n= bsp;    try it like this before running cable.
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    > At the begining, I'll have my microphone
in the lounge only.
>              &n= bsp;    Therefore, I'll
>              &n= bsp;    > not use mixer yet (have to save money for
it first). That's where
>              &n= bsp;    it will be
>              &n= bsp;    > mostly used for giving commands for
controlling devices. My lounge
>              &n= bsp;    is
>              &n= bsp;    > 6.5mx3.8m. Sofa is opposite to the TV and
that's where, usually
>              &n= bsp;    I'll be
>              &n= bsp;    > giving commands from.
>              &n= bsp;    > But it's not simple for me to bring
microphone close to the sofa.
>              &n= bsp;    How did
>              &n= bsp;    > you place yours?
>              &n= bsp;    > How does it behave when TV is playing? Is
it capable of
>              &n= bsp;    distinguishing your
>              &n= bsp;    > voice from TV voice, or do you have to
yell?
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    You need to set your expectations as to what
to expect from 'open
>              &n= bsp;    air voice recognition'. The results will
range from good to very
>              &n= bsp;    poor (it's very frustrating when you have to
repeat yourself many
>              &n= bsp;    times!). VR technology (at least in open
air) is still limited. If
>              &n= bsp;    you've got a TV on (depending on volume) the
results will vary a
>              &n= bsp;    lot. After all, how could the software
distinguish between someone
>              &n= bsp;    talking on the TV and your voice?
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    I've been thinking about noise cancelling
technology to help with
>              &n= bsp;    this - maybe feeding the output of the
TV/Stereo into a circuit with
>              &n= bsp;    the mic signal and cancelling out the
TV/Stereo frequencies. I
>              &n= bsp;    suspect it'd be quite difficult though as
the signal transmitted
>              &n= bsp;    from the TV speaker will sound very
different to the 'clean' line-
>              &n= bsp;    out signal. Any thoughts anyone?
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    > You have that intelligent mixer and it
detects which microphones is
>              &n= bsp;    > receiving sound an makes it active. If TV
or music is playing in
>              &n= bsp;    the lounge,
>              &n= bsp;    > will that lock the mixer to microphone in
the lounge, so it will
>              &n= bsp;    not listen
>              &n= bsp;    > in other rooms?
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    Yes it can lock it out. The mixer has input
balancing controls for
>              &n= bsp;    each input and an overall master control.
You set these controls
>              &n= bsp;    depending on the ambient levels in each room
so that it switches
>              &n= bsp;    correctly. This of course doesn't account
for when someone switches
>              &n= bsp;    on loud TV or music in the kitchen and
you're trying to talk to your
>              &n= bsp;    PC in the lounge. That's why I went for the
Shure mixer with it's
>              &n= bsp;    logic control - using outputs from HV or
other HA hardware, you can
>              &n= bsp;    manually select which mic to 'lock on' (or
you could wire up a very
>              &n= bsp;    simple override switch - uses 5V logic). You
can also detect which
>              &n= bsp;    mic is active - which I will use to
eventually feed back PC voice to
>              &n= bsp;    only the room giving commands.
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    I went for all this as I'm interested in the
technology. I think it
>              &n= bsp;    still has a long way to go to get to
the 'Startrek Voyager' stage!
>              &n= bsp;   
>              &n= bsp;    > Cheers,
>              &n= bsp;    > Nik
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >   -----Original Message-----
>              &n= bsp;    >   From: psghome2002 [mailto:psghome@h= ...]
>              &n= bsp;    >   Sent: 13 July 2002 19:12
>              &n= bsp;    >   To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx >              &n= bsp;    >   Subject: [ukha_d] Re: placing
microphones...
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >   Round 2...
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >   I also put in mics in most rooms fo= r
voice recognition. I did a
>              &n= bsp;    LOT
>              &n= bsp;    >   of research and eventually put in C= rown
PZM11 wall mics. They're
>              &n= bsp;    >   fairly inobtrusive and based on the=
US 'J Box' size format (you
>              &n= bsp;    can
>              &n= bsp;    >   use a J Box or just cut a hole in t= he
wall and use rawl plugs for
>              &n= bsp;    >   the screw fixing - I did both).
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >   The mic quality is great - it's a <= BR> pressure zone mic and designed
>              &n= bsp;    to
>              &n= bsp;    >   pick up voice frequencies (has a bi= t of
bass roll-off to cut HVAC
>              &n= bsp;    >   noises etc). I fed these via standa= rd
mic cable (very important
>              &n= bsp;    to
>              &n= bsp;    >   use good quality cable) which is screened (doesn't cost a great
>              &n= bsp;    deal
>              &n= bsp;    >   either) into a Shure SCM810 intelli= gent
mixer. This mixer
>              &n= bsp;    supplies
>              &n= bsp;    >   +48V phantom power to the mics. It =
automatically senses which mic
>              &n= bsp;    >   has the loudest input and switches = to
that source. Also has a
>              &n= bsp;    logic
>              &n= bsp;    >   input so you can do some clever stu= ff
linked to HomeVision etc.
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >   Shure web site (www.shure.com)
>              &n= bsp;    >   Crown web site (www.crownaudio.com)=
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >   Shure has a good document on why yo= u
SHOULD NOT place mics on the
>              &n= bsp;    >   ceiling:
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >  
http://= www.shure.com/support/technotes/app-ceiling.html
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >   Mics will pick up all noise in the = room,
so depends on what you
>              &n= bsp;    want
>              &n= bsp;    >   to do with it.
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >   I'm planning to try and create a wh= ole-
house hands-free telephone
>              &n= bsp;    >   system. Don't know how successful i= t'll
be though.
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >   I put a couple of pics on the Yahoo=
group Photos area - mic and
>              &n= bsp;    >   keypad for audio system - Under subject 'Pauls mics'
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >   Let me know if you want more info.<= BR> >              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >   Paul.
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >   --- In ukha_d@y..., "Nikola Ka= sic"
<nikola@k...> wrote:
>              &n= bsp;    >   > Along with speakers, I plan to= put
microphones in each room as
>              &n= bsp;    >   well.
>              &n= bsp;    >   > My main question is: what kind= of
cable I should put in and
>              &n= bsp;    what's
>              &n= bsp;    >   the
>              &n= bsp;    >   > longest run I can use before d= egrading
signal?
>              &n= bsp;    >   > Also, where should I place microphones, relative to the
>              &n= bsp;    speakers,
>              &n= bsp;    >   in order
>              &n= bsp;    >   > to avoid feedback and echoing?=
>              &n= bsp;    >   > If speaker is close to the mic= rophone
and music is coming out
>              &n= bsp;    of
>              &n= bsp;    >   it, will I
>              &n= bsp;    >   > have to yell in order to be he= ard by
microphone?
>              &n= bsp;    >   > I know that there are very few= people
with installed
>              &n= bsp;    microphones
>              &n= bsp;    >   in this
>              &n= bsp;    >   > group. Can they come forward a= nd tell
me what's their
>              &n= bsp;    experience,
>              &n= bsp;    >   which
>              &n= bsp;    >   > cables they used and where did= they
place microphones.
>              &n= bsp;    >   > Cheers,
>              &n= bsp;    >   > Nik
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >
>              &n= bsp;    >        =