RE: Re: placing microphones...

["Nikola Kasic" <nikola@xxxxxxx>]

You're right, but I don't have to implement everything now. I have to
put
cables for speakers, PIR and IR Tx/Rx, so I'll use the oportunity to put
mic
cable as well. I hope this is the last time I am putting cables and
I'll
probably put speakers now and tre rest of the cables hide in the wall.
So
when the time comes and technology is ready, I'll be ready as well.
The problem with phone is that you still have to carry phone with
yourself.
Then IR remote would be even more reliable. Recognition would be 100%,
but
the point is not having to carry anything. 
Do you carry phone in a bathroom? ;-).
And what if you want to give some command while someone is talking on
the
phone?
Nik

-----Original Message-----
From: Amar Nagi [mailto:amar@xxxxxxx]
Sent: 15 July 2002 17:17
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...


Nikola,

Can i just add something to this discussion.
I too looked at a microphone solution to VR home automation, and after
alot
of
research i decided not to. I went for a cordless phone solution
instead.
It is just not reliable enough. One major point i hated was if you have
guests
round with kids they too can start speaking commands.
I saw a few future homes and each one opted for the phone or headset
solution.
Check out the orange.co.uk future home project.

It can be really embrassing siting with guests trying to give commands
to your node0 and getting no response, whereas the phone solution 
works i would say 95% of the time if not more.

Food for thought..........


-----Original Message----- 
From: Nikola Kasic [mailto:nikola@xxxxxxx] 
Sent: Mon 15/07/2002 16:57 
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx 
Cc: 
Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...


Paul,
I am sitting in a sofa opposite the TV and I am faced towards TV. Where
should I mount my mic? If I mount mic on a wall behind me it will be
closer
to me then to the TV but it will be behind my back. If I place it behind
TV,
I'll be faced towards mic, but TV will be closer. So, which way to go?
My original plan is neither. I planned to put it above the doors of the
lounge, so it would be at on the side, almost equally distanced from me
and
TV (slightly closer to TV). But distance between me and mic and TV and
mic
will be about 4-5m, while distance between me and TV is about 3.5m. 
Is that O.K?
I am reading all the theory, but I'm not smarter. All the documents are
for
the environment when you know where speaker is standing, so you use
different kinds of mics to enhance reception from speaker and attenuate
the
noise. Hence kardioid etc. mics.
However, in a flat I'll be moving and for moving speakers they
recommend
using wireless mics which you wear, but you don't want those either. So
there's no proper solution. I'll asume that I'll be in a sofa and try
to
adjust everything for that scenario. All the rest is in god's hands.
Where did you buy your microphones from?

I just ordered mic cable. It would cost me about 44 quid, because
delivery
is £8.
Spoke to Mark from West London Elec as you recommended.
They don't have web site yet (will in a month, he said) and their address
is
9-11Acton High Road if anyone is interested.

You said that you did a lot of research before diving into this. What
makes
you think that recognition is not good because of software and not
because
of hardware or microphone placement?
Did you ever consider placing wireless microphones, instead of wired
ones,
so you can place more of them, at more appropriate places?
Regarding noise cancellation, did you consider having one mic very close
to
TV speaker and use that signal for cancellation. Maybe having wireless
one
and place it on top, or inside the TV speaker, or inside TV?

Nik

-----Original Message-----
From: psghome2002 [mailto:psghome@xxxxxxx]
Sent: 15 July 2002 13:21
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Subject: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...


I'm emailing several people with the same info at the moment - maybe 
I should put it all down on a web page (if I ever get the time!). 
See my comments below (rather long though):


> What do you use them for, at the moment?

Used for Voice Recognition - tried HAL2000 and HomeVoice. Both got 
serious limitations in the way I want to use it though. I've been 
talking to Dan Hoenhen (ACE) about him developing an ACE VR module 
which could potentially be much more flexible than HAL or HomeVoice.

Also will use as additional voice/noise tracking as part of Comfort 
alarm system - recording when alarm activated. Got a lot to do 
before that though.

> Do you have one in each room, or maybe two in larger rooms like 
lounge?

only one in each room (well 7 so far). Although some of my rooms are 
fairly large, one mic picks up voice OK (depending on background 
noise). Interesting listening to conversations - not that I'd do 
that of course!

> Which cable did you use? Someone said that it's very important to 
put good
> quality microphone cable. Where did you buy it?

I agree - mic cable is very different to other types of cable. I 
used an Adastra Z323 cable - 2 cores with overall screen. 
recommended for 'installed' sound applications. Got it from  West 
London Elec - Mark - 0208 9922155. £35.25 inc VAT per 100m drum.


> And what's your longest run from mic to mixer?

About 20-30m I guess. Mic cable can run much longer distances 
though. I've used it on productions in excess of 60m

> I am sorry for so many questions, but there are only few people 
with
> microphones on this group, so you are very valuable source of 
information.
> It seems that the most important thing is placing them.
> Where did you place yours?

On the wall at light switch height. Although the guys at Shure are 
very adamant about not ceiling mounting, I did try taping a mic at 
various points around the room and the difference was normally quite 
small. Best to site it towards where you will speak. I suggest you 
try it like this before running cable.

> At the begining, I'll have my microphone in the lounge only. 
Therefore, I'll
> not use mixer yet (have to save money for it first). That's where 
it will be
> mostly used for giving commands for controlling devices. My lounge
is
> 6.5mx3.8m. Sofa is opposite to the TV and that's where, usually 
I'll be
> giving commands from.
> But it's not simple for me to bring microphone close to the sofa. 
How did
> you place yours?
> How does it behave when TV is playing? Is it capable of 
distinguishing your
> voice from TV voice, or do you have to yell?

You need to set your expectations as to what to expect from 'open 
air voice recognition'. The results will range from good to very 
poor (it's very frustrating when you have to repeat yourself many 
times!). VR technology (at least in open air) is still limited. If 
you've got a TV on (depending on volume) the results will vary a 
lot. After all, how could the software distinguish between someone 
talking on the TV and your voice?

I've been thinking about noise cancelling technology to help with 
this - maybe feeding the output of the TV/Stereo into a circuit with 
the mic signal and cancelling out the TV/Stereo frequencies. I 
suspect it'd be quite difficult though as the signal transmitted 
>from
out signal. Any thoughts anyone?

> You have that intelligent mixer and it detects which microphones
is
> receiving sound an makes it active. If TV or music is playing in 
the lounge,
> will that lock the mixer to microphone in the lounge, so it will 
not listen
> in other rooms?

Yes it can lock it out. The mixer has input balancing controls for 
each input and an overall master control. You set these controls 
depending on the ambient levels in each room so that it switches 
correctly. This of course doesn't account for when someone switches 
on loud TV or music in the kitchen and you're trying to talk to your 
PC in the lounge. That's why I went for the Shure mixer with it's 
logic control - using outputs from HV or other HA hardware, you can 
manually select which mic to 'lock on' (or you could wire up a very 
simple override switch - uses 5V logic). You can also detect which 
mic is active - which I will use to eventually feed back PC voice to 
only the room giving commands.

I went for all this as I'm interested in the technology. I think it 
still has a long way to go to get to the 'Startrek Voyager' stage!

> Cheers,
> Nik
> 
> 
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: psghome2002 [mailto:psghome@h...]
>   Sent: 13 July 2002 19:12
>   To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
>   Subject: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...
> 
> 
>   Round 2...
> 
>   I also put in mics in most rooms for voice recognition. I
did a 
LOT
>   of research and eventually put in Crown PZM11 wall mics.
They're
>   fairly inobtrusive and based on the US 'J Box' size format
(you 
can
>   use a J Box or just cut a hole in the wall and use rawl
plugs for
>   the screw fixing - I did both).
> 
>   The mic quality is great - it's a pressure zone mic and
designed 
to
>   pick up voice frequencies (has a bit of bass roll-off to
cut HVAC
>   noises etc). I fed these via standard mic cable (very
important 
to
>   use good quality cable) which is screened (doesn't cost a
great 
deal
>   either) into a Shure SCM810 intelligent mixer. This mixer
supplies
>   +48V phantom power to the mics. It automatically senses
which mic
>   has the loudest input and switches to that source. Also
has a 
logic
>   input so you can do some clever stuff linked to HomeVision
etc.
> 
>   Shure web site (www.shure.com)
>   Crown web site (www.crownaudio.com)
> 
>   Shure has a good document on why you SHOULD NOT place mics
on the
>   ceiling:
> 
>   http://www.shure.com/support/technotes/app-ceiling.html
<http://www.shure.com/support/technotes/app-ceiling.html>
> 
>   Mics will pick up all noise in the room, so depends on
what you 
want
>   to do with it.
> 
>   I'm planning to try and create a whole-house hands-free
telephone
>   system. Don't know how successful it'll be though.
> 
>   I put a couple of pics on the Yahoo group Photos area -
mic and
>   keypad for audio system - Under subject 'Pauls mics'
> 
>   Let me know if you want more info.
> 
>   Paul.
> 
> 
> 
>   --- In ukha_d@y..., "Nikola Kasic"
<nikola@k...> wrote:
>   > Along with speakers, I plan to put microphones in
each room as
>   well.
>   > My main question is: what kind of cable I should put
in and 
what's
>   the
>   > longest run I can use before degrading signal?
>   > Also, where should I place microphones, relative to
the 
speakers,
>   in order
>   > to avoid feedback and echoing?
>   > If speaker is close to the microphone and music is
coming out 
of
>   it, will I
>   > have to yell in order to be heard by microphone?
>   > I know that there are very few people with installed
microphones
>   in this
>   > group. Can they come forward and tell me what's their
experience,
>   which
>   > cables they used and where did they place
microphones.
>   > Cheers,
>   > Nik
> 
> 
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