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RE: Re: placing microphones...
- To: <ukha_d@xxxxxxx>
- Subject: RE: Re: placing microphones...
- From: "Nikola Kasic" <nikola@xxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 16:57:43 +0100
- Mailing-list: list ukha_d@xxxxxxx; contact
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- Reply-to: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Paul,
I
am
sitting in a sofa opposite the TV and I am faced towards TV. Where should I
mount my mic? If I mount mic on a wall behind me it will be closer to me
then to
the TV but it will be behind my back. If I place it behind TV, I'll be
faced
towards mic, but TV will be closer. So, which way to
go?
My
original plan is neither. I planned to put it above the doors of the
lounge, so
it would be at on the side, almost equally distanced from me and TV
(slightly
closer to TV). But distance between me and mic and TV and mic will be about
4-5m, while distance between me and TV is about 3.5m.
Is
that O.K?
I
am
reading all the theory, but I'm not smarter. All the documents are for the
environment when you know where speaker is standing, so you use different
kinds
of mics to enhance reception from speaker and attenuate the noise. Hence
kardioid etc. mics.
However, in a flat I'll be moving and for moving speakers they
recommend
using wireless mics which you wear, but you don't want those either. So
there's
no proper solution. I'll asume that I'll be in a sofa and try to adjust
everything for that scenario. All the rest is in god's
hands.
Where
did you buy your microphones from?
I
just
ordered mic cable. It would cost me about 44 quid, because delivery is
£8.
Spoke
to Mark from West London Elec as you recommended.
They
don't have web site yet (will in a month, he said) and their address is
9-11Acton High Road if anyone is interested.
You
said that you did a lot of research before diving into this. What makes you
think that recognition is not good because of software and not because of
hardware or microphone placement?
Did
you ever consider placing wireless microphones, instead of wired ones, so
you
can place more of them, at more appropriate places?
Regarding noise cancellation, did you consider having one mic very
close
to TV speaker and use that signal for cancellation. Maybe having wireless
one
and place it on top, or inside the TV speaker, or inside
TV?
Nik
I'm emailing several people with the
same info at the moment - maybe I should put it all down on a web page
(if
I ever get the time!). See my comments below (rather long
though):
> What do you use them for, at the
moment?
Used
for Voice Recognition - tried HAL2000 and HomeVoice. Both got serious
limitations in the way I want to use it though. I've been talking to
Dan
Hoenhen (ACE) about him developing an ACE VR module which could
potentially be much more flexible than HAL or HomeVoice.
Also will
use
as additional voice/noise tracking as part of Comfort alarm system -
recording when alarm activated. Got a lot to do before that
though.
> Do you have one in each room, or maybe two in larger
rooms
like lounge?
only one in each room (well 7 so far). Although
some
of my rooms are fairly large, one mic picks up voice OK (depending on
background noise). Interesting listening to conversations - not that
I'd
do that of course!
> Which cable did you use? Someone said
that
it's very important to put good > quality microphone cable. Where
did you buy it?
I agree - mic cable is very different to other types
of
cable. I used an Adastra Z323 cable - 2 cores with overall screen.
recommended for 'installed' sound applications. Got it from West
London Elec - Mark - 0208 9922155. £35.25 inc VAT per 100m
drum.
> And what's your longest run from mic to
mixer?
About 20-30m I guess. Mic cable can run much longer distances
though. I've used it on productions in excess of 60m
> I am
sorry for so many questions, but there are only few people with >
microphones on this group, so you are very valuable source of
information. > It seems that the most important thing is placing
them. > Where did you place yours?
On the wall at light switch
height. Although the guys at Shure are very adamant about not ceiling
mounting, I did try taping a mic at various points around the room and
the
difference was normally quite small. Best to site it towards where you
will speak. I suggest you try it like this before running
cable.
> At the begining, I'll have my microphone in the lounge
only. Therefore, I'll > not use mixer yet (have to save money for
it
first). That's where it will be > mostly used for giving commands
for controlling devices. My lounge is > 6.5mx3.8m. Sofa is
opposite
to the TV and that's where, usually I'll be > giving commands
from. > But it's not simple for me to bring microphone close to the
sofa. How did > you place yours? > How does it behave when
TV
is playing? Is it capable of distinguishing your > voice from TV
voice, or do you have to yell?
You need to set your expectations as
to
what to expect from 'open air voice recognition'. The results will
range
>from
yourself many times!). VR technology (at least in open air) is still
limited. If you've got a TV on (depending on volume) the results will
vary
a lot. After all, how could the software distinguish between someone
talking on the TV and your voice?
I've been thinking about noise
cancelling technology to help with this - maybe feeding the output of
the
TV/Stereo into a circuit with the mic signal and cancelling out the
TV/Stereo frequencies. I suspect it'd be quite difficult though as the
signal transmitted from the TV speaker will sound very different to the
'clean' line- out signal. Any thoughts anyone?
> You have that
intelligent mixer and it detects which microphones is > receiving
sound
an makes it active. If TV or music is playing in the lounge, >
will
that lock the mixer to microphone in the lounge, so it will not
listen > in other rooms?
Yes it can lock it out. The mixer has
input balancing controls for each input and an overall master control.
You
set these controls depending on the ambient levels in each room so that
it
switches correctly. This of course doesn't account for when someone
switches on loud TV or music in the kitchen and you're trying to talk
to
your PC in the lounge. That's why I went for the Shure mixer with it's
logic control - using outputs from HV or other HA hardware, you can
manually select which mic to 'lock on' (or you could wire up a very
simple override switch - uses 5V logic). You can also detect which
mic
is active - which I will use to eventually feed back PC voice to only
the
room giving commands.
I went for all this as I'm interested in the
technology. I think it still has a long way to go to get to the
'Startrek
Voyager' stage!
> Cheers, > Nik > >
> -----Original Message----- > From:
psghome2002 [mailto:psghome@h...] > Sent: 13 July 2002
19:12 > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx> Subject:
[ukha_d] Re: placing microphones... > > >
Round 2... > > I also put in mics in most rooms
for
voice recognition. I did a LOT > of research and
eventually put in Crown PZM11 wall mics. They're > fairly
inobtrusive and based on the US 'J Box' size format (you
can > use a J Box or just cut a hole in the wall and
use
rawl plugs for > the screw fixing - I did both). >
> The mic quality is great - it's a pressure zone mic
and
designed to > pick up voice frequencies (has a bit of
bass roll-off to cut HVAC > noises etc). I fed these via
standard mic cable (very important to > use good
quality
cable) which is screened (doesn't cost a great deal >
either) into a Shure SCM810 intelligent mixer. This mixer
supplies > +48V phantom power to the mics. It
automatically senses which mic > has the loudest input
and
switches to that source. Also has a logic > input so
you
can do some clever stuff linked to HomeVision etc. >
> Shure web site (www.shure.com) >
Crown
web site (www.crownaudio.com) > > Shure has a good
document on why you SHOULD NOT place mics on the >
ceiling: > > http://www.shure.com/support/technotes/app-ceiling.html >
> Mics will pick up all noise in the room, so depends on
what you want > to do with it. >
> I'm planning to try and create a whole-house
hands-free
telephone > system. Don't know how successful it'll be
though. > > I put a couple of pics on the Yahoo
group
Photos area - mic and > keypad for audio system - Under
subject 'Pauls mics' > > Let me know if you want
more
info. > > Paul. > > >
> --- In ukha_d@y..., "Nikola Kasic" <nikola@k...>
wrote: > > Along with speakers, I plan to put
microphones
in each room as > well. > > My main
question is: what kind of cable I should put in and
what's > the > > longest run I
can
use before degrading signal? > > Also, where should I
place microphones, relative to the speakers, > in
order > > to avoid feedback and
echoing? > > If speaker is close to the microphone and
music is coming out of > it, will
I >
> have to yell in order to be heard by microphone? >
>
I know that there are very few people with installed
microphones > in this > > group.
Can they come forward and tell me what's their
experience, > which > > cables
they
used and where did they place microphones. > >
Cheers, > > Nik > >
> Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor > >
Click
here to find your contact lenses! > > For more
information: http://www.automatedhome.co.uk >
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