RE: Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?

["Broadfoot, Kieran J" <Kieran.Broadfoot@xxxxxxx>]

Ill dig the code link out at work tommorrow for you.  It doesnt need to
just
run on a TINI as it uses java/commapi so you could run it on most
platforms.


I got to say Heinlein is a great writer.  Still think his best piece was
friday but only because its so descriptive and not quite so caught up in he
details as some of his other books.

sparc 20, cost of those new was about 15k without any added bits and
pieces.
I just decommissioned our old trading floor of sun kit moving to a new
building and given it was such a large project my boss let me have one of
the old boxes.  I found some spares and ended up with a fairly high spac
box.  four ross hyper sparc chips and 512mb, and a mirrored pair of 18gb
drives.  It runs hot ;-)

Sun kit like high end HA systems is expensive.  A good desktop will cost
you
just shy of 10k and most servers (420R upwards) are about 40-45k.  If you
wanted a fully loaded e4500 your average Sun dealership would probably want
about 250k upwards (without any kind of disk chassis!)

Its expensive but it dont stop working ;-)

k

-----Original Message-----
From: Mick Furlong [mailto:dorsai@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 10:57 AM
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?


Kieran

I would be interested in the code you have found for TINI/CM12 do you have
a
link?

Yup it was in the Moon is a Harsh Mistress and he also used the concept in
a
lot of his other books (The self aware computer was called Mycroft brother
of Sherlock Holmes if I recall correctly;).

A sparc 20 to run your house!!!!...I remember when a Sparc system would
cost
more than most houses! I guess thay have come down a bit in price or you
have a good source.

Mick

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Broadfoot, Kieran J [mailto:Kieran.Broadfoot@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: 24 June 2001 10:34
> To: 'ukha_d@xxxxxxx'
> Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?
>
>
> agreed.. very similar to how I was thinking about running my
> system.  I work
> with highly available systems and was looking at implementing
something
> similar in hardware.  Full functionality from a pc with a database etc
but
> all management controlled by a TINI (I found the code a couple of days
to
> control a cm12u from a TINI) but I would prefer to have a pair of them
(or
> maybe more) all in sync around the house.  A loss of any individual
board
> (blown fuse, hard hang etc) would allow others to carry on.
> Tspaces (as per
> Johns email a while back) or JINI/JIRO would provide me with that
> functionality.
>
> Tandem:  Not sure if they are still going but very cool hardware
> designs.  I
> know a lot of telecoms companies used to use them for control
> systems given
> their high availability.  I had a job managing a couple which lasted 4
> weeks.  They offered me a job as a sun system admin and then gave me a
> tandem.  I spent two weeks working out how to compile vi then
> realised they
> are terrible from a management perspective ;-)
>
> Heinlein:  Wasnt it the moon is a harsh mistress?
>
> k.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mick Furlong [mailto:dorsai@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 3:11 AM
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?
>
>
> I agree as well, if you want non stop computing then you need to look
at
> something designed for it like Tandem systems were (are they still
going?)
> There are other similar options some of them even based on MSoft
> but all of
> them cost big! Anyone familiar with the tell me three times
> concept that was
> used in some SF novels (Heinlen I think)?
>
> I think that any HA system needs to include graceful degradation by
that I
> mean ....PC running you have top fuctionality including thought
control (
> only kidding but maybe voice control)plus lots of automation as in
Kierans
> concepts, PC dies you roll over to a local controller like a
TINI/Rabbit,
> still lots of integration possible but you lose the higher level
> functions,
> the cupboard you put both the TINI  and the PC in ends up under
> two feet of
> water (hmm is it Paul that has some of his gear in a cellar? ;) then
you
> fall over to local control on direct switches or local pic driven
devices.
>
> As well as degrading gracefully any system has to have failsafes in
place,
> examples are ...don't let the heating warm the house up to 40
> degrees C (and
> similarly don't let temps drop enough to freeze pipes), electrical
door
> locks should fail to locked BUT should have manual inside opening
> and if you
> want a failsafe for not P***ing off swmbo then don't allow
> anything to flash
> the living room lights every 5 secs (I did this recently and she
wasn't
> happy  ;)
>
> Just my thoughts
>
> Mick
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kenneth Watt [mailto:kennethwatt@xxxxxxx]
> > Sent: 22 June 2001 18:50
> > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> > Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in
London?
> >
> >
> > I agree with John, I would not trust a PC to run the house,
although I
> > do trust HV as it is mot MS based :-> hell, even Linux topples
over
> > occasionally so getting everything PC based for me is not an
option at
> > the moment.
> >
> > K.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dr John Tankard [mailto:john@xxxxxxx]
> > Sent: 22 June 2001 17:42
> > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> > Subject: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?
> >
> > > ideas:
> > >
> > > i. second ukha product - 1 and 2 gang wall switches
controlled by
> > xap.
> > > Standard wall sockets providing the same functionality as
x10 just
> > over
> > > tcp/ip and with state
> >
> > We had talked about this one before, its a idea I like but the
> > general feeling was, its overkill and it would be to expensive.
> >
> > I like the wall switch which would do more ie lcd/kbd module.
> >
> > There is another problem with the wall switch. The lighting
project
> > is going to handle two/three forms of local control:-
> > 1) standard low voltage switch closures which could come from
either
> > CAT5 or 1.5mm t&e home run, this would allow the users with
DIN
> > modules to conver over to the new system and allow users to
switch
> > back to almoust normal wiring if the move home (Not done but very
> > easy)
> > 2) multi drop serial comms over cat5 (Done using SNAP at the
moment)
> > 3) 1 wire interface to the PIC (Not sure about this no code
written)
> > Now in your example although you would not have TCP/IP at the
wall
> > switch, you would have it at the lighting controler, so there is
no
> > problem in the lighting controler passing the TCP/IP message out
from
> > the wall switches.
> >
> > >
> > > ii. Maybe the project doesnt need a full software control
system
> > but rather
> > > a software API written in various languages.  Maybe the HA
masses
> > would
> > > prefer a COM object they can embed into their VB?  Or the
perl
> > geeks can
> > > have a perl module, or those java heads can get their hands
on a
> > jar file.
> > > Whatever way we produce it the important thing is that it
keeps
> > some of the
> > > complex stuff hidden with a nice little API for people. 
They could
> > wrap
> > > objects and other groovy data objects round it if they want
to build
> > > relationships between devices but alternatively they could
> > something as
> > > simple as:
> > >
> > > import net.sf.ukha.xap.*;
> > >
> > > Xap x = new Xap();
> > >
> > > public void main() {
> > >    Array a = new Array();
> > >    x.scanNet(a);
> > >    x.turnOnDevice(a[4]);
> > > }
> > >
> > > // you get the idea ....
> > >
> >
> > I think we must also allow interface to other hardware
controlers,
> > HV, Comfort. The reason I say this is you have to get people to
trust
> > a PC, not easy (had to reset my W2K yesterday) I have never had a
> > problem with HV. Actualy I have just reset a Novell 5 server
today
> > (uptime 602 days). The point I am making is its a bit of a leap
of
> > faith to trust your house to a PC. I like the idea of the level
of
> > control we can accheive with it but the house must not crash if
the
> > PC's hard disk packs up. I know we could have two PC's but I dont
> > think we would sell the idea.
> >
> > > iii. We also talked about sponsorship for the ukha project
from
> > letsautomate
> > > or laser etc to help cover up front costs for CE compliance
etc.
> > In return
> > > they get guaranteed stock and the honour of being the only
> > stockists for x
> > > number of months or x amount of stock etc.
> > >
> >
> > It sounds nice, but its a risk for them, I think we need to make
> > something first so they can see it might happen first.
> >
> >
> > > I think there are two major issues with nearly all HA
systems
> > currently:
> > >
> > > a. There is virtually no easy way to integrate the
components in a
> > > controlled fashion (thats what makes the expensive systems a
good
> > deal if
> > > you could afford them)
> >
> > I fully agree with this, but what is the answer, we could make a
> > complete system, but there is a lot of work in this.
> >
> > We could look at the main systems and try and intergrate them
into
> > our devices.
> >
> > >
> > > b. Most people implement HA by controlling devices and then
adding
> > sensing
> > > capabilities
> > >
> > > Im in the very early stages of implementing my own home brew
system
> > but Ive
> > > been thinking about it for quite some time and the idea of
an
> > intelligent
> > > house must indicate you start with setting up the house to
be aware
> > of its
> > > surroundings.  I am basing this stuff on 1-wire/ibuttons and
TINI
> > as my
> > > chosen platform because it all supports java ;-)
> > >
> > > Each room has a number of sensor modules.  A module would be
made
> > up of a
> > > small breaboard containing a 64kbit iButton plus n+1 1-wire
sensors
> > (light,
> > > humidity, temp etc).  Using the xml 1-wire project (on
sourceforge)
> > you can
> > > define relationships between 1-wire devices.  The idea is
that each
> > sensor
> > > has its own local data storage on the nvram.  This is then
farmed
> > off
> > > through an object model into a database for historical use. 
The
> > great thing
> > > is that even if you lose the database you can still boot
strap the
> > house
> > > using the few hours worth of data on the nvram buttons.
> > >
> > > Historical mapping of data provides trend analysis of the
house
> > status which
> > > can then be used with a bit of logic to define outcomes when
> > situations
> > > occur.  I wanted to be able to dim lights in a room to
different
> > levels
> > > depending on light levels in different parts of the room so
you get
> > a
> > > uniform light level across the room.
> >
> > All sounds good, it reminds me of LonWorks which I wanted to use
but
> > the development stuff was way over budget.
> >
> > John
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________
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http://www.automatedhome.co.uk
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____________________________________
Automated Home UK
http://www.automatedhome.co.uk
____________________________________

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/