RE: Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?

["Mick Furlong" <dorsai@xxxxxxx>]

Kieran

I would be interested in the code you have found for TINI/CM12 do you have
a
link?

Yup it was in the Moon is a Harsh Mistress and he also used the concept in
a
lot of his other books (The self aware computer was called Mycroft brother
of Sherlock Holmes if I recall correctly;).

A sparc 20 to run your house!!!!...I remember when a Sparc system would
cost
more than most houses! I guess thay have come down a bit in price or you
have a good source.

Mick

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Broadfoot, Kieran J [mailto:Kieran.Broadfoot@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: 24 June 2001 10:34
> To: 'ukha_d@xxxxxxx'
> Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?
>
>
> agreed.. very similar to how I was thinking about running my
> system.  I work
> with highly available systems and was looking at implementing
something
> similar in hardware.  Full functionality from a pc with a database etc
but
> all management controlled by a TINI (I found the code a couple of days
to
> control a cm12u from a TINI) but I would prefer to have a pair of them
(or
> maybe more) all in sync around the house.  A loss of any individual
board
> (blown fuse, hard hang etc) would allow others to carry on.
> Tspaces (as per
> Johns email a while back) or JINI/JIRO would provide me with that
> functionality.
>
> Tandem:  Not sure if they are still going but very cool hardware
> designs.  I
> know a lot of telecoms companies used to use them for control
> systems given
> their high availability.  I had a job managing a couple which lasted 4
> weeks.  They offered me a job as a sun system admin and then gave me a
> tandem.  I spent two weeks working out how to compile vi then
> realised they
> are terrible from a management perspective ;-)
>
> Heinlein:  Wasnt it the moon is a harsh mistress?
>
> k.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mick Furlong [mailto:dorsai@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 3:11 AM
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?
>
>
> I agree as well, if you want non stop computing then you need to look
at
> something designed for it like Tandem systems were (are they still
going?)
> There are other similar options some of them even based on MSoft
> but all of
> them cost big! Anyone familiar with the tell me three times
> concept that was
> used in some SF novels (Heinlen I think)?
>
> I think that any HA system needs to include graceful degradation by
that I
> mean ....PC running you have top fuctionality including thought
control (
> only kidding but maybe voice control)plus lots of automation as in
Kierans
> concepts, PC dies you roll over to a local controller like a
TINI/Rabbit,
> still lots of integration possible but you lose the higher level
> functions,
> the cupboard you put both the TINI  and the PC in ends up under
> two feet of
> water (hmm is it Paul that has some of his gear in a cellar? ;) then
you
> fall over to local control on direct switches or local pic driven
devices.
>
> As well as degrading gracefully any system has to have failsafes in
place,
> examples are ...don't let the heating warm the house up to 40
> degrees C (and
> similarly don't let temps drop enough to freeze pipes), electrical
door
> locks should fail to locked BUT should have manual inside opening
> and if you
> want a failsafe for not P***ing off swmbo then don't allow
> anything to flash
> the living room lights every 5 secs (I did this recently and she
wasn't
> happy  ;)
>
> Just my thoughts
>
> Mick
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kenneth Watt [mailto:kennethwatt@xxxxxxx]
> > Sent: 22 June 2001 18:50
> > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> > Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in
London?
> >
> >
> > I agree with John, I would not trust a PC to run the house,
although I
> > do trust HV as it is mot MS based :-> hell, even Linux topples
over
> > occasionally so getting everything PC based for me is not an
option at
> > the moment.
> >
> > K.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dr John Tankard [mailto:john@xxxxxxx]
> > Sent: 22 June 2001 17:42
> > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> > Subject: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?
> >
> > > ideas:
> > >
> > > i. second ukha product - 1 and 2 gang wall switches
controlled by
> > xap.
> > > Standard wall sockets providing the same functionality as
x10 just
> > over
> > > tcp/ip and with state
> >
> > We had talked about this one before, its a idea I like but the
> > general feeling was, its overkill and it would be to expensive.
> >
> > I like the wall switch which would do more ie lcd/kbd module.
> >
> > There is another problem with the wall switch. The lighting
project
> > is going to handle two/three forms of local control:-
> > 1) standard low voltage switch closures which could come from
either
> > CAT5 or 1.5mm t&e home run, this would allow the users with
DIN
> > modules to conver over to the new system and allow users to
switch
> > back to almoust normal wiring if the move home (Not done but very
> > easy)
> > 2) multi drop serial comms over cat5 (Done using SNAP at the
moment)
> > 3) 1 wire interface to the PIC (Not sure about this no code
written)
> > Now in your example although you would not have TCP/IP at the
wall
> > switch, you would have it at the lighting controler, so there is
no
> > problem in the lighting controler passing the TCP/IP message out
from
> > the wall switches.
> >
> > >
> > > ii. Maybe the project doesnt need a full software control
system
> > but rather
> > > a software API written in various languages.  Maybe the HA
masses
> > would
> > > prefer a COM object they can embed into their VB?  Or the
perl
> > geeks can
> > > have a perl module, or those java heads can get their hands
on a
> > jar file.
> > > Whatever way we produce it the important thing is that it
keeps
> > some of the
> > > complex stuff hidden with a nice little API for people. 
They could
> > wrap
> > > objects and other groovy data objects round it if they want
to build
> > > relationships between devices but alternatively they could
> > something as
> > > simple as:
> > >
> > > import net.sf.ukha.xap.*;
> > >
> > > Xap x = new Xap();
> > >
> > > public void main() {
> > >    Array a = new Array();
> > >    x.scanNet(a);
> > >    x.turnOnDevice(a[4]);
> > > }
> > >
> > > // you get the idea ....
> > >
> >
> > I think we must also allow interface to other hardware
controlers,
> > HV, Comfort. The reason I say this is you have to get people to
trust
> > a PC, not easy (had to reset my W2K yesterday) I have never had a
> > problem with HV. Actualy I have just reset a Novell 5 server
today
> > (uptime 602 days). The point I am making is its a bit of a leap
of
> > faith to trust your house to a PC. I like the idea of the level
of
> > control we can accheive with it but the house must not crash if
the
> > PC's hard disk packs up. I know we could have two PC's but I dont
> > think we would sell the idea.
> >
> > > iii. We also talked about sponsorship for the ukha project
from
> > letsautomate
> > > or laser etc to help cover up front costs for CE compliance
etc.
> > In return
> > > they get guaranteed stock and the honour of being the only
> > stockists for x
> > > number of months or x amount of stock etc.
> > >
> >
> > It sounds nice, but its a risk for them, I think we need to make
> > something first so they can see it might happen first.
> >
> >
> > > I think there are two major issues with nearly all HA
systems
> > currently:
> > >
> > > a. There is virtually no easy way to integrate the
components in a
> > > controlled fashion (thats what makes the expensive systems a
good
> > deal if
> > > you could afford them)
> >
> > I fully agree with this, but what is the answer, we could make a
> > complete system, but there is a lot of work in this.
> >
> > We could look at the main systems and try and intergrate them
into
> > our devices.
> >
> > >
> > > b. Most people implement HA by controlling devices and then
adding
> > sensing
> > > capabilities
> > >
> > > Im in the very early stages of implementing my own home brew
system
> > but Ive
> > > been thinking about it for quite some time and the idea of
an
> > intelligent
> > > house must indicate you start with setting up the house to
be aware
> > of its
> > > surroundings.  I am basing this stuff on 1-wire/ibuttons and
TINI
> > as my
> > > chosen platform because it all supports java ;-)
> > >
> > > Each room has a number of sensor modules.  A module would be
made
> > up of a
> > > small breaboard containing a 64kbit iButton plus n+1 1-wire
sensors
> > (light,
> > > humidity, temp etc).  Using the xml 1-wire project (on
sourceforge)
> > you can
> > > define relationships between 1-wire devices.  The idea is
that each
> > sensor
> > > has its own local data storage on the nvram.  This is then
farmed
> > off
> > > through an object model into a database for historical use. 
The
> > great thing
> > > is that even if you lose the database you can still boot
strap the
> > house
> > > using the few hours worth of data on the nvram buttons.
> > >
> > > Historical mapping of data provides trend analysis of the
house
> > status which
> > > can then be used with a bit of logic to define outcomes when
> > situations
> > > occur.  I wanted to be able to dim lights in a room to
different
> > levels
> > > depending on light levels in different parts of the room so
you get
> > a
> > > uniform light level across the room.
> >
> > All sounds good, it reminds me of LonWorks which I wanted to use
but
> > the development stuff was way over budget.
> >
> > John
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________
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> > http://www.automatedhome.co.uk
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