RE: Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?

["Broadfoot, Kieran J" <Kieran.Broadfoot@xxxxxxx>]

agreed.. very similar to how I was thinking about running my system.  I
work
with highly available systems and was looking at implementing something
similar in hardware.  Full functionality from a pc with a database etc but
all management controlled by a TINI (I found the code a couple of days to
control a cm12u from a TINI) but I would prefer to have a pair of them (or
maybe more) all in sync around the house.  A loss of any individual board
(blown fuse, hard hang etc) would allow others to carry on.  Tspaces (as
per
Johns email a while back) or JINI/JIRO would provide me with that
functionality.

Tandem:  Not sure if they are still going but very cool hardware designs. 
I
know a lot of telecoms companies used to use them for control systems given
their high availability.  I had a job managing a couple which lasted 4
weeks.  They offered me a job as a sun system admin and then gave me a
tandem.  I spent two weeks working out how to compile vi then realised they
are terrible from a management perspective ;-)

Heinlein:  Wasnt it the moon is a harsh mistress?

k.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mick Furlong [mailto:dorsai@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 3:11 AM
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?


I agree as well, if you want non stop computing then you need to look at
something designed for it like Tandem systems were (are they still going?)
There are other similar options some of them even based on MSoft but all of
them cost big! Anyone familiar with the tell me three times concept that
was
used in some SF novels (Heinlen I think)?

I think that any HA system needs to include graceful degradation by that I
mean ....PC running you have top fuctionality including thought control (
only kidding but maybe voice control)plus lots of automation as in Kierans
concepts, PC dies you roll over to a local controller like a TINI/Rabbit,
still lots of integration possible but you lose the higher level functions,
the cupboard you put both the TINI  and the PC in ends up under two feet of
water (hmm is it Paul that has some of his gear in a cellar? ;) then you
fall over to local control on direct switches or local pic driven devices.

As well as degrading gracefully any system has to have failsafes in place,
examples are ...don't let the heating warm the house up to 40 degrees C
(and
similarly don't let temps drop enough to freeze pipes), electrical door
locks should fail to locked BUT should have manual inside opening and if
you
want a failsafe for not P***ing off swmbo then don't allow anything to
flash
the living room lights every 5 secs (I did this recently and she wasn't
happy  ;)

Just my thoughts

Mick

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kenneth Watt [mailto:kennethwatt@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: 22 June 2001 18:50
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?
>
>
> I agree with John, I would not trust a PC to run the house, although I
> do trust HV as it is mot MS based :-> hell, even Linux topples over
> occasionally so getting everything PC based for me is not an option at
> the moment.
>
> K.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dr John Tankard [mailto:john@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: 22 June 2001 17:42
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> Subject: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?
>
> > ideas:
> >
> > i. second ukha product - 1 and 2 gang wall switches controlled by
> xap.
> > Standard wall sockets providing the same functionality as x10
just
> over
> > tcp/ip and with state
>
> We had talked about this one before, its a idea I like but the
> general feeling was, its overkill and it would be to expensive.
>
> I like the wall switch which would do more ie lcd/kbd module.
>
> There is another problem with the wall switch. The lighting project
> is going to handle two/three forms of local control:-
> 1) standard low voltage switch closures which could come from either
> CAT5 or 1.5mm t&e home run, this would allow the users with DIN
> modules to conver over to the new system and allow users to switch
> back to almoust normal wiring if the move home (Not done but very
> easy)
> 2) multi drop serial comms over cat5 (Done using SNAP at the moment)
> 3) 1 wire interface to the PIC (Not sure about this no code written)
> Now in your example although you would not have TCP/IP at the wall
> switch, you would have it at the lighting controler, so there is no
> problem in the lighting controler passing the TCP/IP message out from
> the wall switches.
>
> >
> > ii. Maybe the project doesnt need a full software control system
> but rather
> > a software API written in various languages.  Maybe the HA masses
> would
> > prefer a COM object they can embed into their VB?  Or the perl
> geeks can
> > have a perl module, or those java heads can get their hands on a
> jar file.
> > Whatever way we produce it the important thing is that it keeps
> some of the
> > complex stuff hidden with a nice little API for people.  They
could
> wrap
> > objects and other groovy data objects round it if they want to
build
> > relationships between devices but alternatively they could
> something as
> > simple as:
> >
> > import net.sf.ukha.xap.*;
> >
> > Xap x = new Xap();
> >
> > public void main() {
> >    Array a = new Array();
> >    x.scanNet(a);
> >    x.turnOnDevice(a[4]);
> > }
> >
> > // you get the idea ....
> >
>
> I think we must also allow interface to other hardware controlers,
> HV, Comfort. The reason I say this is you have to get people to trust
> a PC, not easy (had to reset my W2K yesterday) I have never had a
> problem with HV. Actualy I have just reset a Novell 5 server today
> (uptime 602 days). The point I am making is its a bit of a leap of
> faith to trust your house to a PC. I like the idea of the level of
> control we can accheive with it but the house must not crash if the
> PC's hard disk packs up. I know we could have two PC's but I dont
> think we would sell the idea.
>
> > iii. We also talked about sponsorship for the ukha project from
> letsautomate
> > or laser etc to help cover up front costs for CE compliance etc.
> In return
> > they get guaranteed stock and the honour of being the only
> stockists for x
> > number of months or x amount of stock etc.
> >
>
> It sounds nice, but its a risk for them, I think we need to make
> something first so they can see it might happen first.
>
>
> > I think there are two major issues with nearly all HA systems
> currently:
> >
> > a. There is virtually no easy way to integrate the components in
a
> > controlled fashion (thats what makes the expensive systems a good
> deal if
> > you could afford them)
>
> I fully agree with this, but what is the answer, we could make a
> complete system, but there is a lot of work in this.
>
> We could look at the main systems and try and intergrate them into
> our devices.
>
> >
> > b. Most people implement HA by controlling devices and then
adding
> sensing
> > capabilities
> >
> > Im in the very early stages of implementing my own home brew
system
> but Ive
> > been thinking about it for quite some time and the idea of an
> intelligent
> > house must indicate you start with setting up the house to be
aware
> of its
> > surroundings.  I am basing this stuff on 1-wire/ibuttons and TINI
> as my
> > chosen platform because it all supports java ;-)
> >
> > Each room has a number of sensor modules.  A module would be made
> up of a
> > small breaboard containing a 64kbit iButton plus n+1 1-wire
sensors
> (light,
> > humidity, temp etc).  Using the xml 1-wire project (on
sourceforge)
> you can
> > define relationships between 1-wire devices.  The idea is that
each
> sensor
> > has its own local data storage on the nvram.  This is then farmed
> off
> > through an object model into a database for historical use.  The
> great thing
> > is that even if you lose the database you can still boot strap
the
> house
> > using the few hours worth of data on the nvram buttons.
> >
> > Historical mapping of data provides trend analysis of the house
> status which
> > can then be used with a bit of logic to define outcomes when
> situations
> > occur.  I wanted to be able to dim lights in a room to different
> levels
> > depending on light levels in different parts of the room so you
get
> a
> > uniform light level across the room.
>
> All sounds good, it reminds me of LonWorks which I wanted to use but
> the development stuff was way over budget.
>
> John
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Automated Home UK
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____________________________________
Automated Home UK
http://www.automatedhome.co.uk
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